Vibration in drivetrain after 4.11 swap

[sperry]

I did a 4.11 swap from a junk-yard (but low mileage) 2.2L Legacy Outback. Used a matching 4.11 rear-end out of a 5-speed Forester.

With the FWD fuse in the car is butter smooth, runs good. With the fuse out, there's all sorts of binding. The tranny had a bad solenoid and rear clutch pack a while back that caused bad binding in tight turns, but this is different, it's binding even in a straight line.

I've been reading the multitudes of threads about binding issues, but I'm having trouble coming up w/ a scenario that matched my issues... plus I'm not sure how much info on the SVX tranny applies to the Legacy 4EAT, though they should be very similar.

Anyone with ideas?

Thanks in advance!

[TomsSVX]

are you getting a flashing power light?? And yes, it is still binding

Tom

[sperry]

are you getting a flashing power light?? And yes, it is still binding

Tom

I didn't notice the tranny throwing codes via the power light, which is something it's done in the past with the original SVX tranny. However, I was not watching the dash carefully, and I believe I've never started the car with the FWD fuse removed, in which case I'm not sure if it would throw a code for an AWD problem. So that's something to check for sure.

I'm trying to brainstorm a failure that would match my symptoms. I was hoping it's something electric and not mechanical, but if my Sol C was out or something, then the FWD fuse wouldn't have an effect and the car would be stuck in AWD mode... so it seems like it's something mechanical that only occurs when Sol C is cycling? Bad clutch pack? Are there other valves that might be clogged that would cause this? Any damage common to transmissions that have sat around for a while? (This 4EAT is from a '97 Legacy Outback that was crashed in 2000... so it's been sitting on a shelf for like 5 years before I got it.)

[huck369]

I didn't notice the tranny throwing codes via the power light, which is something it's done in the past with the original SVX tranny. However, I was not watching the dash carefully, and I believe I've never started the car with the FWD fuse removed, in which case I'm not sure if it would throw a code for an AWD problem. So that's something to check for sure.

I'm trying to brainstorm a failure that would match my symptoms. I was hoping it's something electric and not mechanical, but if my Sol C was out or something, then the FWD fuse wouldn't have an effect and the car would be stuck in AWD mode... so it seems like it's something mechanical that only occurs when Sol C is cycling? Bad clutch pack? Are there other valves that might be clogged that would cause this? Any damage common to transmissions that have sat around for a while? (This 4EAT is from a '97 Legacy Outback that was crashed in 2000... so it's been sitting on a shelf for like 5 years before I got it.)

Most Legacy Outbacks have 4.44 gears, so the rear 4.11 is probably not what you needed...

What makes you think the Tranny has 4.11 gears?

[svxfiles]

I did a 4.11 swap from a junk-yard (but low mileage) 2.2L Legacy Outback. Used a matching 4.11 rear-end out of a 5-speed Forester.

This 4EAT is from a '97 Legacy Outback"

1997 Legacy Outbacks had 4.44s! (final drive ratio in the 4EAT)
1997 Legacy Outbacks had 2.5 engines!
Get us the part # off the trans and
DO NOT DRIVE IT!!!
sending pm

[TomsSVX]

svxfiles has spoken

Tom

[sperry]

1997 Legacy Outbacks had 4.44s! (final drive ratio in the 4EAT)
1997 Legacy Outbacks had 2.5 engines!
Get us the part # off the trans and
DO NOT DRIVE IT!!!
sending pm

Oops!! It was a 2.2L '96 Outback.. :lol: Sorry for the confusion.

The yard I got it from swore up and down that the tranny was from a 2.5L so I picked up a 4.44 rear-end initially, but the number on the tranny didn't seem right and after the install we counted revolutions of the front/rear tires while the car was on the lift idling in drive and the fronts were turning slower than the rears. So, I went back to the yard and had them swap me the 4.44 for a 4.11 rear-end.

The tranny code is "TZ102Z2ABA" instead of "TZ102Z2CBA", which seems to indicate I've got the tranny from a 2.2L Legacy, which never had the 4.44's. Everything seems to check out that I've got the right ratios everywhere, unless there's a 3.90 4EAT out there I've never heard of.

I wish I had a 4.44, as that was what I paid for at the yard... but it'll cost me another $300+ in shop time to swap it out, plus I don't think I can find a quality used 4.44 locally, so the 4.11's will be good enough if I can get this damn vibration cleared up.

[Hocrest]

...unless there's a 3.90 4EAT out there I've never heard of.



Early 90's Leg's had them...

[svxfiles]

This is a picture of Nicks 1996 Legacy Outback 4EAT with 4.44 gears.
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/boxer6/19193.jpg
And this is a picture of my 1997 Legacy Outback 4EAT with 4.44 gears.
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/svxfiles/24637.jpg
The 1996, 1997, and EARLY 1998 2.5 engined, LEGACY Outbacks had 4.44 gears.
These trans are compatable for SVX swapping.:)
In 1996 the LEGACY manual transmission car came with a 2.2 engine.
It's time to get the other rear, the 4.44 and hope for no damage.

Here is a picture of a 4.11 4EAT.
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/svxfiles/27952.jpg
I forget what year it is.:o

[svxfiles]

after the install we counted revolutions of the front/rear tires while the car was on the lift idling in drive and the fronts were turning slower than the rears.
It is possible that the bigger heavier front brakes had more drag than the rear brakes.
Or that the side you were NOT watching had the front spinning faster than the rears.
Tom

[svxfiles]

svxfiles has spoken

Tom
Thanks Young Tom.:D

[sperry]

Dammit! You've got to be kidding me... we had binding issues when we moved the car about 5 feet with the 4.44 rear-end which is why we put it on the rack to count revolutions. If that was the correct rear-diff, what was causing that binding?

Also, would the binding of mis-matched diffs go away when the car is in neutral, because getting the car rolling in 4WD, then bumping it to N allows it to coast w/o vibration. Is Sol.C activated 100% when the car's in neutral?

Finally, what do you make of the entries on www.car-part.com? If you lookup a 1996 Subaru Legacy Transmission, you're prompted with this list of specifics:


M.T., thru 5/95, FWD
M.T., thru 5/95, AWD
A.T., thru 6/95, FWD (ID# TA102AAAAA)
A.T., thru 6/95, AWD (ID# TZ102ZAAAA)
M.T., from 6/95, 2.2L, 2WD
M.T., from 6/95, 2.2L, 4WD
A.T., from 6/95, FWD (ID# TA102AABAA)
A.T., from 6/95, AWD, 2.5L
A.T., from 6/95, AWD, 2.2L, ID# TZ102Z2ABA
A.T., from 6/95, AWD, 2.2L, ID# TZ102ZABAA
M.T., from 6/95, 2.5L


It seems that someone else believes there was a 2.2L Legacy w/ an ABA tranny, and according to everything I've read and the parts guys at Subaru, there's never been a 2.2L Legacy w/ 4.44 gears.

Is there anyway to accurately calculate the ratio of the front diff short of pulling a stub-axle and poking a flashlight in there and counting? I'd just like to be sure this is really the situation before I go and make the yard trade me *again* for a rear-end.

Oh, and as far as damage, I'm not too worried. The car's got maybe 20 miles on it since the swap, all of them w/ the FWD fuse in. The only time it's been driven in AWD mode was less than a mile, and at about 5 mph tops while diagnosing the vibration. What do you guys think, probably didn't wreck anything, no?

And, thanks everyone for all the help!

[huck369]

I doubt you've damaged it, if that all that is been driven.

Could even be a Transfer clutch basket issue...
But if the Tranny came out of a Legacy Outback it'll be a 4.44, I'm pretty sure.

[sperry]

I doubt you've damaged it, if that all that is been driven.

Could even be a Transfer clutch basket issue...
But if the Tranny came out of a Legacy Outback it'll be a 4.44, I'm pretty sure.

The problem is, I don't know for sure what car the tranny came out of. According to the yard it was a 1996 Legacy Outback w/ a 2.5L motor. But according to the dealer and car-part.com the ABA tranny came on the 2.2L Legacy in 1996. Hell, for all I know I've got the tranny out of an Impreza. :( All I really know is that the sticker on the bell housing ends in ABA.

I'm talking to the guy that's been doing most of the work on the car about finding out for sure what the ratio is on that tranny. The problem is, I think the only way to check is to pull the axle and the stub axle, and peak inside to count teeth on the diff, which is a huge PITA, because we'll have to pre-load the bearings and crap in there when we put it back together. The guy works at a dealership, so he's got a lift and great tools and the like, and he's super cool about doing work after-hours for beer and a burger, but that job isn't a quick or easy one, so I'll have to pay for labor on it unless there's some other way of checking the ratio. Any ideas?

[TomsSVX]

pop the drain plug to count ring teeth... thats all.

Tom

[sperry]

pop the drain plug to count ring teeth... thats all.

Tom

Awesome! I didn't think you'd be able to see anything.

What's the ring count for a 4.44 vs. a 4.11 on the front diff? Is it the same as the rear diffs (37 ring/9 pinion for a 4.11, 40 ring/9 pinion for a 4.44)?

[TomsSVX]

I believe so but check with svxfiles for that one

Tom

[sperry]

I believe so but check with svxfiles for that one

Tom

You mean simply having the name "Tom" doesn't magically impregnate all SVX related data into your brain? ;)

[svxfiles]

Here are the trans #s from our four 4.44 equipped 4EAT SVXi;
Nicks
TZ102Z2ABA I know his was from a 1996 Legacy Outback.
My Claret
TZ102Z2CBA I know it was a 1997 but would have to check my posts from two years ago to find out.
My once perfect Pearlie
TZ102Z2DBA I believe it was a 1997 as well.
My newest Pearlie
TZ102Z2CCA As I remember a 1997 too.

I also checked the 4.44 laying on my garage floor awaiting installation in a Pearlie this weekend. The reciept says it came from a 1997 Legacy Outback VIN;4S3BGC855V7605248

[sperry]

Here are the trans #s from our four 4.44 equipped 4EAT SVXi;
Nicks
TZ102Z2ABA I know his was from a 1996 Legacy Outback.
My Claret
TZ102Z2CBA I know it was a 1997 but would have to check my posts from two years ago to find out.
My once perfect Pearlie
TZ102Z2DBA I believe it was a 1997 as well.
My newest Pearlie
TZ102Z2CCA As I remember a 1997 too.

I also checked the 4.44 laying on my garage floor awaiting installation in a Pearlie this weekend. The reciept says it came from a 1997 Legacy Outback VIN;4S3BGC855V7605248

That's great info. I'm starting to think that the number on the case doesn't always signify the ratio of the front diff. There very well could be some CBA's w/ 4.11's and some CBA's with 4.44's... you really have to have good info about the car it came out of to know!

We'll be pulling the drain plug on my tranny soon (hopefully tomorrow) and counting ring gears. We'll know for sure what's in my car. If it is indeed a 4.44, I'm really at a loss to explain the binding we had when we had the initial 4.44 rear-end on the car.

As much as I'm going to look like a dumb-ass going back to the junk yard and asking "he, remember that 4.44 rear-end I gave back to you, ya still got it?" I'm really hoping this is my issue. I really wanted a 4.44 all along, and I was bummed when we thought it turned out that we had a 4.11. Plus, if it turns out to be a 4.11, I'm at a loss as to what's causing all the binding in that thing.

[svxfiles]

, I'm really at a loss to explain the binding we had when we had the initial 4.44 rear-end on the car.

I have had properly matched trans/rear ends bind when first installed.
First check the TPS as it can cause binding, and check for codes.
If they are OK try driving slowley in figure 8s to see if the plates were just stuck from sitting.
It could be a F/R clutch basket, or a solenoid C
(also called a single wire solenoid)stuck that may or may not throw a code.
It is possible for an incorrect front diff to be installed on a trans, but not too many people go to the trouble of splitting the case.
Keep at it, good luck.
You will love your 4.44s!!!:cool:
More Later
Tom.

[sperry]

I have had properly matched trans/rear ends bind when first installed.
First check the TPS as it can cause binding, and check for codes.
If they are OK try driving slowley in figure 8s to see if the plates were just stuck from sitting.
It could be a F/R clutch basket, or a solenoid C
(also called a single wire solenoid)stuck that may or may not throw a code.
It is possible for an incorrect front diff to be installed on a trans, but not too many people go to the trouble of splitting the case.
Keep at it, good luck.
You will love your 4.44s!!!:cool:
More Later
Tom.

TPS should be good. I checked it not so long ago when I replaced my step-down resistor.

Plates may have been stuck, but we noticed the original binding just backing the car straight back out from under the lift. I was so noticeable idling in a straight line that we immediately went "oh crap, it's got to be a 4.11!" Plus we checked wheel speeds with the car in the air, and the fronts were turning significantly faster than the rears at idle. Maybe that's brake drag and the result of a 90/10 split, but really it seems to me that on the lift w/o the resistance from the ground, the brake drag should actually help to sync the AWD (you know, the way some cars use the ABS to help with traction control).

Now if my Sol. C were dead, then the installation of the FWD fuse that activates it wouldn't have an effect, yet I'm able to put the car into FWD mode and remove all the binding, so I'm pretty confident that the solenoid and related valves are all working properly. If they weren't I'd either have no binding at all, or the FWD fuse would fail to clear it up. Plus, I'd likely have a code of some sort (which I don't think I've got, but I'm not 100% sure). And, I've had a bad Sol.C before, and the binding felt different, it was only in turns, and the tighter the turn, the worse it got. The binding was (and is) all the time, even in a straight line.

It could be the clutch basket. In fact that's what we were assuming because we were so sure everything was 4.11. We figured the tranny I got was bad, and we'd be rebuilding the bastard. But the tranny came off a car a long while ago (car was a '96 and ended up in the yard in '00, so the tranny only has 4 years of miles on it... it's been sitting longer than it's been used!) I can't imagine the clutch basket would be worn out w/ so few miles (I figure 40k to 60k miles is a good guess). Plus the tranny was in *excellent* condition. We drained the dregs of the fluid from it, and installed a new filter, gaskets, etc. Everything looked great. So, I think it's not all that likely that there's something wrong w/ the tranny itself, which is why I put up this post.

You guys have convinced me that there's a good chance this is really a 4.44 gearbox. Which would explain all the symptoms we're seeing now. I'm just at a loss for what was going on when we had a 4.44 rear-end on the car.

Anyway, I'm really just rambling at this point. I'll know for sure what's going on (or at least know for sure that I don't know what's going on) as soon as we count the ratio on the front diff.

[Trevor]

The binding was (and is) all the time, even in a straight line.


I would say that you know exactly what you are about and have logically worked out what is wrong, but have very much hoped that you are not correct, on the basis of what is involved to fix things. What a bugger! :( :eek:

I commiserate, Trevor. ;)

[sperry]

I would say that you know exactly what you are about and have logically worked out what is wrong, but have very much hoped that you are not correct, on the basis of what is involved to fix things. What a bugger! :( :eek:

I commiserate, Trevor. ;)

Actually, I'm really hoping this tranny is a 4.44, and my only issue is that I've got the wrong rear-end on the car. I've swapped rear-ends so many times, my friend and I can drop the exhaust, pull the original, crack the case, take out the LSD carrier, open the donor, grind the bumps, swap the rings, install the LSD, pattern the gears, reassemble and reinstall everything in about 30 to 40 minutes... getting the right 4.44 rear-end in the car will be a breeze.

What I'm really scared of is having matching ratios, and no idea where the vibration is coming from!

[Trevor]

Actually, I'm really hoping this tranny is a 4.44, and my only issue is that I've got the wrong rear-end on the car. I've swapped rear-ends so many times, my friend and I can drop the exhaust, pull the original, crack the case, take out the LSD carrier, open the donor, grind the bumps, swap the rings, install the LSD, pattern the gears, reassemble and reinstall everything in about 30 to 40 minutes... getting the right 4.44 rear-end in the car will be a breeze.

What I'm really scared of is having matching ratios, and no idea where the vibration is coming from!

If I had to do all that it would be a bugger! :( So of now I simply wish you luck with the feeling that you are correct in your diagnosis. Fingers crossed and may you breeze on in smooth air.:D

[sperry]

Okay, little update:

My friend finally had some spare time at the shop to put the car on the lift, drain the front diff and count some teeth. 40 teeth on the front diff ring gear! IMO, that's a 4.44. I can't believe we f-ed it up when we already had a 4.44 in the car that was in great condition. :(

I went back to the yard that sold me the tranny and diff(s). They had sold the 4.44 I had returned earlier, but I found a '98 2.5L Legacy Outback on the lot that was in a roll-over and still has its rear-end (no motor or tranny though anymore). They're pulling the diff for me tomorrow morning, and I'll pick it up at lunch. Hopefully we'll get it in the car tomorrow afternoon, and I'll finally be done with this damn 4.44 swap!

[Trevor]

Okay, little update:

My friend finally had some spare time at the shop to put the car on the lift, drain the front diff and count some teeth. 40 teeth on the front diff ring gear! IMO, that's a 4.44. I can't believe we f-ed it up when we already had a 4.44 in the car that was in great condition. :(

I went back to the yard that sold me the tranny and diff(s). They had sold the 4.44 I had returned earlier, but I found a '98 2.5L Legacy Outback on the lot that was in a roll-over and still has its rear-end (no motor or tranny though anymore). They're pulling the diff for me tomorrow morning, and I'll pick it up at lunch. Hopefully we'll get it in the car tomorrow afternoon, and I'll finally be done with this damn 4.44 swap!

Again I say, "what a bugger", but you now know that your diagnosis was spot on from the start. :) Should I say, "told you so"? :confused: Whatever, only kick yourself once. :D

Cheers, Trevor. *<)

[NeedForSpeed]

Your wish has been granted:p



I wish I had a 4.44, as that was what I paid for at the yard... but it'll cost me another $300+ in shop time to swap it out, plus I don't think I can find a quality used 4.44 locally, so the 4.11's will be good enough if I can get this damn vibration cleared up.

[sperry]

Your wish has been granted:p

Just what I was thinking!

*wishes to find a wad of hundreds in his pants pocket*

[sperry]

So get this... the rear-end from that '98 Legacy ended up being *another* 4.11! Argh! So either there are some '98's w/ 4.11's (was there a mid-year change over?) or the donor car was a 5MT and just happened to have the shift linkage from a 4EAT tossed in the driver's seat. :lol:

Anyway, I was able to source a '97 2.5L Legacy 4EAT rear-end from another junk yard on Thursday, and by Friday afternoon my friend at the shop had that bastard installed!

The car runs like a champ now in a straight line, but I'm afraid we may have indeed damaged the center diff with the 4.11 that was on the car briefly... that, or the center diff was bad to begin with in the tranny... something we'll never know. Either way, the car has the exact same binding issues that it had on the OEM tranny back when I purchased it: binding during turns, the tighter the turn the worse the binding. It's not anywhere near as bad as the original tranny was, so I figure I can drive it for a bit before absolutely having to repair it, but I'd much rather take care of this soon than later.

On the original tranny, I ended up getting the solenoids and the rear clutch pack thing replaced. I'm willing to bet all this new tranny needs is a new transfer clutch, or whatever it's really called, I think it's #33123 in this drawing:

http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/2A/i170-1.gif

It may also need a new housing, as that's the other half of the friction in the clutch, is it not? I'm sure there's someone on the board that's done this repair... any tips and/or part numbers I need to do this on a '97 Legacy 4.44?

[Trevor]

The important thing is that you obviously know the whys and wherefores and will not be taken for a ride. :cool:

[huck369]

A 97-98 4EAT Legacy will always be 4.11, only the Legacy GT and Legacy Outback had the 4.44's that you need.
Some Foresters too, but I'm not sure they have the correct size diff

[sperry]

A 97-98 4EAT Legacy will always be 4.11, only the Legacy GT and Legacy Outback had the 4.44's that you need.
Some Foresters too, but I'm not sure they have the correct size diff

I thought any Legacy w/ a 2.5L motor had the 4.44's... and according to the emissions tag on the car, it was certainly a 1998 2.5L Legacy wagon. Either way, I finally did find the right bit, and I certainly learned that I don't know/remember as much about Subaru's as I thought when it comes to what's in which model... :o

[svxfiles]

I thought any Legacy w/ a 2.5L motor had the 4.44's...


1998 2.5L Legacy wagon.

Any Legacy Outback, Legacy GT, Legacy LSI, Forester, Impreza 2.5,
WITH THE 4EAT automatic transmission, from 1996, 1997, and EARLY 1998 have the swapable trans.
If you get a stick, or a later transmission, they wil not work.

[sperry]

Any Legacy Outback, Legacy GT, Legacy LSI, Forester, Impreza 2.5,
WITH THE 4EAT automatic transmission, from 1996, 1997, and EARLY 1998 have the swapable trans.
If you get a stick, or a later transmission, they wil not work.

Stupid mid year change to 4.11's!! :p

But like I said, I got the right parts now... I just need to repair the binding I've got.

I wonder if I brought it to Subaru, they'd be able to fix it... "no, uh really, just pretend you're working on a '96 Legacy Outback!" (Actually, the parts guys at my local dealership know all about this tranny swap since I'm in there buying up-pipe gaskets once a month for my WRX and I've mentioned it. :lol: )

[svxfiles]

Stupid mid year change to 4.11's!! :p


Actually the mid year change was in the transmission, and the electrics/electronics will not work.
Subaru kept the 4.44 in the trans, but if the trans has a spin on oil filter on the left side, above the pan, behind the bell housing, it will not work with our stock SVX TCU.
This is what we know now.


Things are subject to change.:rolleyes:
More later.

[TomsSVX]

and as the version I 4eat's get older, we need to find a way to wire up the version II 4eat's. I am still looking for a solution for this delema. If I ever have some more free time I will divulge some of it into disecting the service manuals I have for both;) Also worth noting, I believe the version II 4eat's have the VDT center diff

Tom

[huck369]

Actually the mid year change was in the transmission, and the electrics/electronics will not work.
Subaru kept the 4.44 in the trans, but if the trans has a spin on oil filter on the left side, above the pan, behind the bell housing, it will not work with our stock SVX TCU.
This is what we know now.


Things are subject to change.:rolleyes:
More later.


What is weird is our 98 Outback has the old style tranny (no spin on filter) and it's build date is 4/98, which makes it a late 98 model...but still has the older trans in it.....:confused:

Basicly just saying, that it may have the old or new trans no matter when it was built if it's a 98....just have to look for the spin on filter to determine.

[TomsSVX]

is it safe to say that tranny codes ending in BA will more than likely be 4.44's and AA are more than likely 4.11??

Tom

[Crazy_pilot]

I figured I'd bring this thread back to life instead of making a new one.

At work we just swapped out the motor and trans in one of the sales guys 97 Legacy Outback with a JDM drivetrain. His original motor had almost 200K miles on it and just blew a head gasket.

After installing everything the car now shudders badly when you pull away, either in a turn or straight line, makes no difference. It does it only in first gear, and if you put in the FWD drive fuse and kill the rear wheels, all is smooth.

So, my question is, what sort of diff ratios did the JDM cars have? I think the motor is either a 95 or 96. I have the codes off both transmissions, but they're at work. Both are TZ102..something something...but end with different letters. One ends with CBA (I'm pretty sure) and the other is something different.

[TomsSVX]

JDM autos are often 4.11 ratio...

Tom

I figured I'd bring this thread back to life instead of making a new one.

At work we just swapped out the motor and trans in one of the sales guys 97 Legacy Outback with a JDM drivetrain. His original motor had almost 200K miles on it and just blew a head gasket.

After installing everything the car now shudders badly when you pull away, either in a turn or straight line, makes no difference. It does it only in first gear, and if you put in the FWD drive fuse and kill the rear wheels, all is smooth.

So, my question is, what sort of diff ratios did the JDM cars have? I think the motor is either a 95 or 96. I have the codes off both transmissions, but they're at work. Both are TZ102..something something...but end with different letters. One ends with CBA (I'm pretty sure) and the other is something different.

[Crazy_pilot]

JDM autos are often 4.11 ratio...

Tom

What do 97 Outbacks come equiped with normally?

[TomsSVX]

US models are equipped with 4.444 differentials

Tom