Just for Electrophyllis......

[Landshark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJmbomyq0fc

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Landshark/35790.gif

[Budfreak]

Duck and cover, Here it comes!:eek::eek:

[Landshark]

Duck and cover, Here it comes!:eek::eek:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Landshark/24960.gif

[Budfreak]

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Landshark/24960.gif

:D:D:D:D:):):):eek:

[lhopp77]

;) :D :p :) :D :eek: :D

Lee

[RSVX]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And the DOW broke 12,000 today...

[Landshark]

where's Electrophallis?

he must be preparing the "Mother-Of-All-Cut-N-Pastes"!!!!!!!!! :eek:

<runs and hides>

[Electrophil]

Now why in the world would that video upset me?

The republicans are no doubt going to lose the house over their total incompetence, the senate is only a toss up because there aren't enough seats up for grabs. The presidency is a bygone conclusion if we run a turtle in 2008.

Congratulations on finally climbing above the dow average set in the Clinton era after only 6 years. It stayed so steady during the Clinton years, I can understand how the slight increase amazes you after only 6 years.

Congratulations for only having 1 outrageously major attack on U.S. soil so far.

Iraq has been a stunning success. It's really been a wonderful week.

The decrease in gas prices from triple prices to only double prices of what it was in 2000 is amazing. kudos!!

Unemployment rates are only slightly above the Clinton era. Good job!!

Inflation rates are much higher than under Clinton, but could be worse!!

Interest rates are much higher than under Clinton, but still.... could be worse.

Your successes in Iran and North Korea are above reproach. You have helped them like no other U.S. party could dream of achieving.

Overall though..... the U.S. population has still decided to fire you. So go ahead, pack your bags and get the shuck out. Please take that windbag O'Really!! with you.

Sorry. But nice video.:D

[Electrophil]

By the way, there is a large conservative group running around in YouTube flagging all democratic biased videos as inappropriate.

Will you Rebuticants please quit acting like children? Or at least stop sleeping with them. :D :D

[lhopp77]

Will you Rebuticants please quit acting like children? Or at least stop sleeping with them. :D :D

Seems to me it was Stubbs the DEMOCRAT that slept with one---the republican just sent inappropriate emails (read---NOT SEXUAL) to a young one (16 year old) and homosexual advances to a 19 year old by text message.

Keep it straight. No pun intended. :rolleyes:

Lee

[Electrophil]

Seems to me it was Stubbs the DEMOCRAT that slept with one---the republican just sent inappropriate emails (read---NOT SEXUAL) to a young one (16 year old) and homosexual advances to a 19 year old by text message.

Keep it straight. No pun intended. :rolleyes:

Lee

I'm a little more concerned with dishonesty, and total lack of integrity myself. Being a pervert doesn't necessarily destroy a country. The republicans are on their way to doing just that.

But not for much longer.

[lhopp77]

Just Released - Agenda for the Democratic National Convention for 2008:

7:00 P.M. Opening flag burning.
7:15 P.M. Pledge of allegiance to U.N. and opening song by the Dixie Chicks
7:30 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast
7:30 till 8:00 P.M. Nonreligious prayer and worship. Jessie Jackson and Al
Sharpton.
8:00 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
8:05 P.M. Ceremonial tree hugging and Cat show
8:15- 8:30 P.M. Gay Wedding - Barney Frank, presiding.
8:30 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
8:35 P.M. Free Saddam Rally. Cindy Sheehan &Susan Sarandon.
9:00 P.M. Keynote speech. The proper etiquette for surrender - French
President Jacques Chirac
9:15 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
9:20 P.M. Collection to benefit Osama Bin Laden kidney transplant fund.
9:30 P.M. Unveiling of plan to free freedom fighters from Guantanamo Bay -
Sean Penn.
9:40 P.M. Why I hate the Military - a short talk by William Jefferson
Clinton.
9:45 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
9:50 P.M. Dan Rather presented Truth in Broadcasting award by Michael
Moore.
9:55 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
10:00 P.M. How George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld brought down the World Trade
Center Towers - Howard Dean.
10:30 P.M. Nomination of Hillary Rodham Clinton by Mahmud Ahmadinejad.
11:00 P.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
11:05 P.M. Al Gore reinvents the Internet.
11:15 P.M. Our Troops are War Criminals - John Kerry.
11:30 P.M. Coronation Of Mrs. Rodham Clinton.
12:00 A.M. Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.
12:05 A.M. Bill asks Ted to drive Hillary home.

Lee :D

[shotgunslade]

I am impressed by the difference between Electrophil's post and Ihopp77's post. Electrophil's was about issues, which could be discussed and for which there might be some hope of reaching agreement or finding common ground, even if they were presented in a pretty aggressive way. Issues, furthermore, involve us all and are important to how we, as a country, proceed from here. Ihopp77's post was about character assassination, slander and personal attack. Nothing positive can come from this point of departure. This approach, of course, is typical from certain parties in this country. Rush Limbaugh about Michael J. Fox. the anti-Ford campaign ads in Virginia. Paul Pallen's "macaca." Anything Ann Coulter says. Those who subscribe to this way of thought, to this means of discourse, have absolutely no business being involved in the affairs of this country because they are intent on division, not unification, they are intent upon vilification, not upon reaching understanding. They don't seem to care if the country falls apart as long as they can make their points against those they don't like. I have a very low opinion of George Bush's character and intellect, but that opinion is irrelevant in any discussion of policies and the way forward for this country. The proof as they say, is in the performance. The debate should be concerning the results of the current leadership, not whether or not W is an idiot, a slacker, a hypocrite, etc. To engage in the latter reduces me to the level of those who pursue that line of discourse. I'm much better than that. So is Electrophil.

[Electrophil]

Wow...I'm kinda speechless..

Thank you! :)

[Landshark]

I am impressed by the difference between Electrophil's post and Ihopp77's post. Electrophil's was about issues, which could be discussed and for which there might be some hope of reaching agreement or finding common ground, even if they were presented in a pretty aggressive way. Issues, furthermore, involve us all and are important to how we, as a country, proceed from here. Ihopp77's post was about character assassination, slander and personal attack. Nothing positive can come from this point of departure. This approach, of course, is typical from certain parties in this country. Rush Limbaugh about Michael J. Fox. the anti-Ford campaign ads in Virginia. Paul Pallen's "macaca." Anything Ann Coulter says. Those who subscribe to this way of thought, to this means of discourse, have absolutely no business being involved in the affairs of this country because they are intent on division, not unification, they are intent upon vilification, not upon reaching understanding. They don't seem to care if the country falls apart as long as they can make their points against those they don't like. I have a very low opinion of George Bush's character and intellect, but that opinion is irrelevant in any discussion of policies and the way forward for this country. The proof as they say, is in the performance. The debate should be concerning the results of the current leadership, not whether or not W is an idiot, a slacker, a hypocrite, etc. To engage in the latter reduces me to the level of those who pursue that line of discourse. I'm much better than that. So is Electrophil.

i am impressed with your reading comprehension, and slant. looks to me like Electrohil busted out the "Republicans sleeping with children" stereotype in his 2nd post in this thread.

i would vote for whoever i thought would do the best job - i'm not blindly Republican. i just haven't seen a Democrat yet with any ideas or plans - all they do is criticize Bush. Kerry always said he had all kinds of plans, but he never said what they were. its like they are so angry that Bush won the last election that all their energy is focused toward bad-mouthing him. period. and this "apologize to the world", "our country is horrible", blah blah blah crap from the liberals makes me sick to my stomach. this politically correct pussification of America needs to end.

[RSVX]

i am impressed with your reading comprehension, and slant. looks to me like Electrohil busted out the "Republicans sleeping with children" stereotype in his 2nd post in this thread.

i would vote for whoever i thought would do the best job - i'm not blindly Republican. i just haven't seen a Democrat yet with any ideas or plans - all they do is criticize Bush. Kerry always said he had all kinds of plans, but he never said what they were. its like they are so angry that Bush won the last election that all their energy is focused toward bad-mouthing him. period. and this "apologize to the world", "our country is horrible", blah blah blah crap from the liberals makes me sick to my stomach. this politically correct pussification of America needs to end.

I couldnt have said it better myself...

[lhopp77]

I am impressed by the difference between Electrophil's post and Ihopp77's post. Electrophil's was about issues, which could be discussed and for which there might be some hope of reaching agreement or finding common ground, even if they were presented in a pretty aggressive way. Issues, furthermore, involve us all and are important to how we, as a country, proceed from here. Ihopp77's post was about character assassination, slander and personal attack. Nothing positive can come from this point of departure. This approach, of course, is typical from certain parties in this country. Rush Limbaugh about Michael J. Fox. the anti-Ford campaign ads in Virginia. Paul Pallen's "macaca." Anything Ann Coulter says. Those who subscribe to this way of thought, to this means of discourse, have absolutely no business being involved in the affairs of this country because they are intent on division, not unification, they are intent upon vilification, not upon reaching understanding. They don't seem to care if the country falls apart as long as they can make their points against those they don't like. I have a very low opinion of George Bush's character and intellect, but that opinion is irrelevant in any discussion of policies and the way forward for this country. The proof as they say, is in the performance. The debate should be concerning the results of the current leadership, not whether or not W is an idiot, a slacker, a hypocrite, etc. To engage in the latter reduces me to the level of those who pursue that line of discourse. I'm much better than that. So is Electrophil.

You obviously have your head in dark places. My post was a joke and I suspect everyone else took it that way. If you will REALLY review all of my posts versus Electrophil---I think you will see that mine attempt discuss the issues or at least keep the truth on the table while most of his are hate Bush attacks.

Different strokes for different................

I have always been willing to discuss the issues but all you far lefters just ATTACK. :D

Lee

[Electrophil]

i am impressed with your reading comprehension, and slant. looks to me like Electrohil busted out the "Republicans sleeping with children" stereotype in his 2nd post in this thread.

i would vote for whoever i thought would do the best job - i'm not blindly Republican. i just haven't seen a Democrat yet with any ideas or plans - all they do is criticize Bush. Kerry always said he had all kinds of plans, but he never said what they were. its like they are so angry that Bush won the last election that all their energy is focused toward bad-mouthing him. period. and this "apologize to the world", "our country is horrible", blah blah blah crap from the liberals makes me sick to my stomach. this politically correct pussification of America needs to end.

3rd post.... I called you guys pedophiles in the third post. :D

Who you "thought" was going to do the best job.... didn't.... during his first term. He allowed the largest attack ever on U.S. soil. The anger comes from a handful of you still supporting this idiot after so many failures, and that handful being the same ones wanting to impeach Clinton over lying to his wife.

Here comes the "But Bush won the majority" remarks... save it. I'm talking about you guys still supporting this idiot now.

Yeah,,, there's anger. And there is a lot of hatred. But whats causing the hatred? Actual... real... events... He has failed royally. Admit that and move on with his and Cheney's impeachments.....

[Electrophil]

You obviously have your head in dark places. My post was a joke and I suspect everyone else took it that way. If you will REALLY review all of my posts versus Electrophil---I think you will see that mine attempt discuss the issues or at least keep the truth on the table while most of his are hate Bush attacks.

Different strokes for different................

I have always been willing to discuss the issues but all you far lefters just ATTACK. :D

Lee


Well... discuss it. Why do you feel Bush has been a "good" President?

[lhopp77]

Well... discuss it. Why do you feel Bush has been a "good" President?

In the first place you don't discuss things. You just spout anti Bush rhetoric. Like even blaming 9/11 on him. Everyone knows that there is much less blame on the Bush administration than on the previous one for that attack and actually no one is specifically to blame. We (all of us) had just been lulled into a position that assumed that a significant attack on us in the US was not possible or at least probable. We have been over that many times and yet you come back to the hate Bush position. When you are willing to realistically discuss things and put the blame or credit where it is due---then we can have a discussion. As long as you just spout pure Bush hatred---we have nothing to discuss.

Lee

[Electrophil]

In the first place you don't discuss things. You just spout anti Bush rhetoric. Like even blaming 9/11 on him. Everyone knows that there is much less blame on the Bush administration than on the previous one for that attack and actually no one is specifically to blame. We (all of us) had just been lulled into a position that assumed that a significant attack on us in the US was not possible or at least probable. We have been over that many times and yet you come back to the hate Bush position. When you are willing to realistically discuss things and put the blame or credit where it is due---then we can have a discussion. As long as you just spout pure Bush hatred---we have nothing to discuss.

Lee

Bush ignored the memo's on an impending attack. He downgraded the Anti terrorist chief and wouldn't allow him in the meetings. He completely ignored Al Qaeda while vacationing on his ranch for 5 out of his first 9 months in office.

These are documented facts.

Your argument has been:

1:) What did Clinton do?
2:) He has phones and faxes at his ranch. He still worked.
3:) No one knew there was going to be an attack. How can you blame Bush for that.

My response has been:

1:) He started an anti terrorist branch, placed Al Qaeda on the terrorist list, and he mandated a special task force just for Al Qaeda. Since he couldn't get basing rights to launch a ground attack, he bombed various Al Qaeda bases throughout the world, to include Afghanistan.

But Clinton wasn't in office for the 9 and 1/2 months prior to 9/11... So we go back to ..... What did Bush do? Not after the attacks.... prior to the attacks? He did nothing but downgrade the anti-terrorist effort.

2:) No.... he didn't work. He cleared brush off his land while his team followed him around with a camera crew. Solid Presidential work isn't efficient with a chain saw in your hand.

3:) Which part of "Al Qaeda plans to launch a major attack on U.S. soil" did he not understand from those documents?

Bush campaigned the second time around on keeping the U.S. safe. This immediately says he should have done that the first time around.

These are all solid arguments. Admit that, and quit protecting this idiot. He has screwed up our country.

And.... You still didn't say why you feel he's been a good president.

[Electrophil]

WTF?

Where did those smiley faces come from? I didn't put smileys there. :confused:

[Electrophil]

Oh... " : " and " ) " placed together will generate an icon smiley.

As long as it's known..... I ain't smiling, and my tail? It ain't wagging.

I want them fired and out of government.... and preferably in prison.

[lhopp77]

Bush ignored the memo's on an impending attack. He downgraded the Anti terrorist chief and wouldn't allow him in the meetings. He completely ignored Al Qaeda while vacationing on his ranch for 5 out of his first 9 months in office.

Your facts are dead WRONG as usual. First he did not spend 5 months out of his first nine at Crawford. You have no basis for making this statement.

As to the August 2001 vacation that has been covered at length previously but you choose to ignore the facts.

At the ranch Bush continues to receive daily national-security briefings, sign documents, hold teleconferences with aides and military commanders, and even meet with foreign leaders.

All modern presidents have taken long August vacations as Congress is out of session and DC essentially shuts down for the entire month. Richard Nixon favored Key Biscayne, Fla. Bush's father preferred Maine. Bill Clinton, lacking a home of his own, borrowed a house on Martha's Vineyard, except for two years when political adviser Dick Morris nudged him into going to Jackson, Wyo., before his re-election because it polled better.

"The Oval Office is wherever the president of the United States is," said Kenneth Duberstein, who was Reagan's last White House chief of staff. "With the communications being what they are, the president can communicate instantly with whomever he wants anywhere in the world." The "alternate White House" has secure telecommunication facilities for daily teleconferencing and briefings by appropriate administration staffs.

During the 27 day 2001 Crawford "vacation" Bush made separate trips to Colorado, New Mexico, Milwaukee, San Antonio, and Williamsport, PA---all in performance of "presidential" duties

The "terrorist threat" information you refer to was received by CIA Chief Tenet on 24 Aug and not passed on to Bush until 4 Sep. It WAS NOT specific and was simply that there could be an attack on American soil.

MORE information COULD have been passed on from the FBI to the CIA IF THE PREVIOUS administration had not built a LEGAL wall keeping the FBI from passing information to the CIA that could have been used to tie things together and provide a bigger picture. AGAIN----THIS was a LEGAL wall put in place by the Clinton Justice Department officials. Thankfully, the Patriot Act tore down that wall.

Get a grip--again you are Bush "bashing" and not discussing. You are loose on facts in many cases and spout pure fabrication in other cases.

Lee

[Electrophil]

Your facts are dead WRONG as usual. First he did not spend 5 months out of his first nine at Crawford. You have no basis for making this statement.

How many days did he spend on vacation away from the oval office for his first 9 nine months in office. Divide that number by 30.4 to get your months. A calculator, calendar, and a tutor may be of some help for you.

As to the August 2001 vacation that has been covered at length previously but you choose to ignore the facts.

What facts?

At the ranch Bush continues to receive daily national-security briefings, sign documents, hold teleconferences with aides and military commanders, and even meet with foreign leaders.

He has an office for that. Why wasn't he using it?

All modern presidents have taken long August vacations as Congress is out of session and DC essentially shuts down for the entire month. Richard Nixon favored Key Biscayne, Fla. Bush's father preferred Maine. Bill Clinton, lacking a home of his own, borrowed a house on Martha's Vineyard, except for two years when political adviser Dick Morris nudged him into going to Jackson, Wyo., before his re-election because it polled better.

Not one of these guys ever took a vacation longer than 3 weeks with the exception of Bush senior.

"The Oval Office is wherever the president of the United States is," said Kenneth Duberstein, who was Reagan's last White House chief of staff. "With the communications being what they are, the president can communicate instantly with whomever he wants anywhere in the world." The "alternate White House" has secure telecommunication facilities for daily teleconferencing and briefings by appropriate administration staffs.

There's not a chainsaw in the world with a built in communication system.

During the 27 day 2001 Crawford "vacation" Bush made separate trips to Colorado, New Mexico, Milwaukee, San Antonio, and Williamsport, PA---all in performance of "presidential" duties

To say $10,000 a plate luncheons are presidential duties is a stretch, don't you think?

The "terrorist threat" information you refer to was received by CIA Chief Tenet on 24 Aug and not passed on to Bush until 4 Sep. It WAS NOT specific and was simply that there could be an attack on American soil.

Which he completely ignored, and refused to speak to Tenet directly.

MORE information COULD have been passed on from the FBI to the CIA IF THE PREVIOUS administration had not built a LEGAL wall keeping the FBI from passing information to the CIA that could have been used to tie things together and provide a bigger picture. AGAIN----THIS was a LEGAL wall put in place by the Clinton Justice Department officials. Thankfully, the Patriot Act tore down that wall.

What legal wall? The patriot act tears down the wall of freedom, not some imaginary wall of beaurocrasy.

Get a grip--again you are Bush "bashing" and not discussing. You are loose on facts in many cases and spout pure fabrication in other cases.

Where? What facts did you just present? All I see on this whole thing is opinions.

Lee

And the bottom line? The people of the United States will take their first step in firing your type in about a week. They'll finish up the job in 2008, and you can go back to some survival school at Ted Nugent's ranch.

We have hashed this to no end, and you guys wouldn't listen.

You're fired.

[Electrophil]

Notice not one thread of evidence on why Bush was a "good" president.

Because its a foregone conclusion that history will devastate his years in office. And it will get worse on him as each document is declassified as the years go by.

I hope they let him read about it as he spends his remaining days in prison.
That's my dream.

[lhopp77]

Give me the dates to arrive at the days I am supposed to divide by 30.4. That is my point---you cannot come up with dates that equal your fictional 5 months.

$10K a plate luncheons at the Little League World Series???? Right. Check out the agendas at the other places I mentioned. NONE of them were the luncheons you fabricated.

Actually Nixon and Reagan hold the records for number of vacation days taken during August. :D

Again Slick Willy would have---but he didn't own a place and he was getting his vacation benefits right in the Oval Office---ala Monica. ;)

Again---there was not enough specific information to take any direct action-----what would you do----shut down all public buildings? Call up the National Guard??? Implement the Terrorism Defense Plan developed by the previous administration----NOT. :rolleyes: Remember that the Bush administration had just started holding meetings on organizing for a national security plan to combat terrorism. Also, REMEMBER that NO SUCH plan existed from ANY former administration even despite numerous attacks on American people and facilities during immediately the preceding administration. STILL NO PLAN was developed. :rolleyes: You talk about the Terrorist expert being demoted---he should have been for not coming forth with a plan during the previous administration.

Lee

[Electrophil]

Give me the dates to arrive at the days I am supposed to divide by 30.4. That is my point---you cannot come up with dates that equal your fictional 5 months.

$10K a plate luncheons at the Little League World Series???? Right. Check out the agendas at the other places I mentioned. NONE of them were the luncheons you fabricated.

Actually Nixon and Reagan hold the records for number of vacation days taken during August. :D

Again Slick Willy would have---but he didn't own a place and he was getting his vacation benefits right in the Oval Office---ala Monica. ;)

Again---there was not enough specific information to take any direct action-----what would you do----shut down all public buildings? Call up the National Guard??? Implement the Terrorism Defense Plan developed by the previous administration----NOT. :rolleyes: Remember that the Bush administration had just started holding meetings on organizing for a national security plan to combat terrorism. Also, REMEMBER that NO SUCH plan existed from ANY former administration even despite numerous attacks on American people and facilities during immediately the preceding administration. STILL NO PLAN was developed. :rolleyes: You talk about the Terrorist expert being demoted---he should have been for not coming forth with a plan during the previous administration.

Lee

Uh huh.... Yeah. Slide around with the most days in August redirect. The concern you have is we are all wise to the tricks.

Doesn't matter.

You guys have less than a week. Are your desks cleaned out yet?

[Landshark]

You guys have less than a week. Are your desks cleaned out yet?


if we win, may i laugh at you and remind you of that fact daily? :D :D :D

[Electrophil]

if we win, may i laugh at you and remind you of that fact daily? :D :D :D

Sure!! But it ain't gonna happen. :D

[lhopp77]

Doesn't matter.

You guys have less than a week. Are your desks cleaned out yet?

One prediction that I will make. IF and I mean IF the democrats win both houses, I predict that your taxes will go up by AT LEAST 58% within the next 2 years.

Lee

[RSVX]

And Terrorists around the world will party like its 1999...

[SubaSteevo]

And Terrorists around the world will party like its 1999...

They'll stock up on food and prepare for their entire computer network to crumble? :confused:

[lhopp77]

Uh huh.... Yeah. Slide around with the most days in August redirect. The concern you have is we are all wise to the tricks.

Doesn't matter.

You guys have less than a week. Are your desks cleaned out yet?

I see that you could not come up with facts to support your total fabrications------AS USUAL. :rolleyes: :)

Lee

[Landshark]

And Terrorists around the world will party like its 1999...


http://www.warda.net/2008D-2.jpg

i'm Osama Bin Laden, and i approve of this message.

[shotgunslade]

One prediction that I will make. IF and I mean IF the democrats win both houses, I predict that your taxes will go up by AT LEAST 58% within the next 2 years.

Lee


Only if you make at least a million dollars a year or you're a multibillion dollar a year corporation. One of the main causes of the deficit is that during the Bush Administration, the effective corporate income tax rate is lower than it has been for many administrations, due to loopholes and rate cuts. The Bush administration has done almost nothing to reduce the the taxes of Americans who have incomes less than 7 figures. Also, if you work for your income you pay much more tax than if you sit on your a$$ and let your money make your income for you. In fact, if you have a work income in the low 6 figures, you get hosed by the Alternative Minimum Tax and your tax rate goes up big time every year. So, despite all the malarkey about Bush holding back taxes, my tax rate has gone through the roof. I don't mind. I believe I should pay taxes because I am fortunate. What really p!sses me off, however, is that the Alternative Minimum Tax involves losing your deduction for state and property taxes, which hit me for about $30k a year. I don't believe I should have to pay income taxes on taxes. But the old tax-cut Bushies don't recognize that as a legitimate issue. They're too busy cutting taxes for people and organizations that are much more fortunate than am I. If you're not rich enough to give the Republican Party $25k or more a year, you don't deserve a tax cut.

[lhopp77]

Only if you make at least a million dollars a year or you're a multibillion dollar a year corporation. One of the main causes of the deficit is that during the Bush Administration, the effective corporate income tax rate is lower than it has been for many administrations, due to loopholes and rate cuts. The Bush administration has done almost nothing to reduce the the taxes of Americans who have incomes less than 7 figures. Also, if you work for your income you pay much more tax than if you sit on your a$$ and let your money make your income for you. In fact, if you have a work income in the low 6 figures, you get hosed by the Alternative Minimum Tax and your tax rate goes up big time every year. So, despite all the malarkey about Bush holding back taxes, my tax rate has gone through the roof. I don't mind. I believe I should pay taxes because I am fortunate. What really p!sses me off, however, is that the Alternative Minimum Tax involves losing your deduction for state and property taxes, which hit me for about $30k a year. I don't believe I should have to pay income taxes on taxes. But the old tax-cut Bushies don't recognize that as a legitimate issue. They're too busy cutting taxes for people and organizations that are much more fortunate than am I. If you're not rich enough to give the Republican Party $25k or more a year, you don't deserve a tax cut.

The figure of a 58% percent increase I referred to applied to someone that only make $50,000 and has 4 children. That is not a rich person by any definition. When I said Robert would have a tax increase, I was being factual. You would also have an increase unless you have a million tax exemptions. The Democrats WOULD increase taxes even for the middle class.

Lee

[shotgunslade]

When I said Robert would have a tax increase, I was being factual.

Unusual definition of factual. Even if you were privy to Democratic taxation reform plans which probably have not yet been written in detail, there is no way to know how the legislation would evolve before it became law. So, seems to me that factual is not a word that applies to a partisan prediction.

Factual - no. Opinionated - yes.

[Electrophil]

One prediction that I will make. IF and I mean IF the democrats win both houses, I predict that your taxes will go up by AT LEAST 58% within the next 2 years.

Lee

58% ? Do you think it's going to cost that much to pay back the irresponsible spending of this Administration? I hope not.

NOBODY wants to raise taxes. NOBODY wants to pay higher taxes. Democrats, Republicans, whatever. NOBODY.

If we had stayed on course as we were before Bush, it wouldn't be necessary. But now that idiot has doubled our national debt. Doubled it!! :eek:

I get mad everytime I think about it.

Regardless of who gets elected, we are going to have to pay back this visa bill the neo-cons have irresponsibly left us. It doesn't matter who gets elected. Read my lips.... (hint...) Your president and party made the bills, and even though I yelled and griped the whole way, I am now stuck having to help pay it back.

Did you enjoy that $600 a year tax break? It's going to cost you thousands a year to pay the interest, and me the same.

It infuriates me your party put us here.

[Electrophil]

And Terrorists around the world will party like its 1999...

Have you read the news? They've been partying. They are still celebrating the world's largest terrorist attack from 2001. October was the deadliest month so far this year in Iraq. 2 major miscalculations by a republican President, Senate, and House that has them drinking champaign.

Still..... it infuriates me the republican party has screwed everything up.

[RSVX]

Have you read the news? They've been partying. They are still celebrating the world's largest terrorist attack from 2001. October was the deadliest month so far this year in Iraq. 2 major miscalculations by a republican President, Senate, and House that has them drinking champaign.

Still..... it infuriates me the republican party has screwed everything up.

Just keep telling yourself that not a single Dem voted for this and that none of them had even the slightest hand in it. If it helps you sleep at night.

ZEE GOGGLES, ZEY DO NOTHING!!!!

[lhopp77]

Unusual definition of factual. Even if you were privy to Democratic taxation reform plans which probably have not yet been written in detail, there is no way to know how the legislation would evolve before it became law. So, seems to me that factual is not a word that applies to a partisan prediction.

Factual - no. Opinionated - yes.

The Democrats have clearly said that they would not make the current tax cuts permanent if they win. My statement is based on them keeping their word. I know that is unusual, but where raising taxes (by not extending the current tax cuts) is concerned---I am sure they will do just that.

I don't make a lot of money as I am retired---but I definitely received a tax cut under Bush as I am sure you did. I would be very happy to keep it like it is. ;)

And actually---I think the economy is humming right along, tax revenues are setting records and new jobs are being created. The deficit is being reduced ahead of Bush projections----despite continuation of the war that was not factored into those projections. :)

Lee

[shotgunslade]

Since the current tax cuts had very little impact on those making $50,000 a year, don't see how that results in a 58% increase in taxes. The tax cuts that would be significantly affected by a Democratic regime would be those for people making more than $500,000 a year, and for corporations.

No I did not receive a tax cut under Bush. Income tax as a percentage of my net income rose substantially during his tenure, primarily because of AMT.

I believe that much of the funding of the war is handled off-budget, so isn't included in the deficit calculation.

There are very real questions about just how pervasive are the beneficial effects of this economy. The economic stratification in this country insures that almost all of the benefits from economic grwoth accrue to those already in the upper income strata.

Surprised you haven't been watch Lou Dobbs' "The War on the Middle Class," on CNN. Now here is a conservative who is after my heart. A man of principle, unlike O'Really.

[Electrophil]

Lou Dobbs is a true working class conservative. I like his values.

[lhopp77]

Lou Dobbs is a true working class conservative. I like his values.

You are kidding of course. Lou Dobbs a conservative????? I think you need to check out the real definition of conservative. The only thing I can think of that Lou Dobbs takes a "conservative" position on is Illegal Immigrants.

He was an active supporter of Kerry during the last election. His economic positions are neither Republican or Democrat, but are definitely closer to Demo than Rep and I don't mean in terms of fiscal spending constraints.

He classifys himself as an Independent, but anyone that ACTIVELY supported Kerry is a definite Liberal. :eek: ;)

Lee

[Electrophil]

You are kidding of course. Lou Dobbs a conservative????? I think you need to check out the real definition of conservative. The only thing I can think of that Lou Dobbs takes a "conservative" position on is Illegal Immigrants.

He was an active supporter of Kerry during the last election. His economic positions are neither Republican or Democrat, but are definitely closer to Demo than Rep and I don't mean in terms of fiscal spending constraints.

He classifys himself as an Independent, but anyone that ACTIVELY supported Kerry is a definite Liberal. :eek: ;)

Lee

That's what I keep trying to tell you. The democrats ARE the new conservatives. Have you noticed what the republican party has been doing the last few years?

Republicans aren't conservative anymore... heck, I ain't sure what they are. They run around up there thumping their chests, but the majority never served in the military. They certainly aren't trying to control the size of the government. One look at their budget handling capability makes you want to grab a barf bag. They are running around trying to make everything against the law. They keep on trying to grab every freedom and privacy we have. The president has even called our constitution a "bit of paper". (By the way Bush, you have a history degree - it ain't made out of paper... you should know that.)

The only thing I can come up with is the new republican is a bible thumping moron wanting to turn our country into a theocracy. That's why I'm shocked you are still supporting them.:eek: They definitely don't represent you anymore.

[shotgunslade]

Did any of you watch on HBO the documentary made by Barry Goldwater's daughter about him and his values? I find that I agree with a suprising number of his ideas, particularly about keeping the govenment out of people's private lives, about the separation of church and state, about fiscal responsibility and about the importance of integrity. He hated Nixon because he knew Nixon's whole life was a lie. He recognized that Nixon had no basic beliefs except his own ambition. Probably my biggest disagreement with Goldwater was in foreign policy, but you can have a legitimate disagreement with someone for whom you have respect. I used to have a lot of respect for John McCain, until he started rubbing up against Bob Jones University and Jerry Falwell to bolster his presidential bid for 2008. Barry would never compromise his integrity in such a fashion.

The current crop of neocons are descendants of Nixon. They harp on Americanism and militarism, but few if any were in the military, most did all they could to stay out of it, and even those who were did "military light." Cheney, Rove, George Allen, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Dennis Hastert, and even "W", all public patriots who somehow or another missed out on the chance to fulfill their patriotism in Vietnam. (Full disclosure, I was an enlisted man in the Navy, but received a medical discharge because of a severe leg fracture off-duty and never saw Vietnam) So these "sofa soldiers" question the patriotism of John Kerry, Jim Webb and John Murtha, and Max Cleland.

What I don't understand is what they he!! do they believe in, other than personal aggrandizement? What are their basic values? If they were so patriotic, why did they pursue every means to stay out of the military. If they are such believers in constitutional purity, why do they challenge habeas corpus and want wire-taps without warrants. Furthermore, why are they so antagonistic to the ACLU, which works really hard to preserve the bill of rights in the face of those who would abridge those rights and freedoms. If they are such believers in equality, why do their campaign ads appeal to our basest divisive feelings?

I think the role of closet gays in the modern Republican party is very instructive. They aren't the Barney Frank's who are up front about who they are. They are people who live a lie, who support the anti-same-sex-marriage amendment, who oppose gay rights, who exploit anti-gay feelings in their campaigns, and then chase underage pages with smutty e-mails. It is all about lack of integrity, about saying whatever you feel will give you public advantage, no matter what you really are or what you have done.

[TomsSVX]

Didn't read through a lot of the Jargan that consumes this thread... Academic prose do not impress me nor does the filler included... I have one question for Republican supporters

Why... why in God's name do you believe that the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism is a good idea?? Having researched ENORMOUS amounts of info on this subject, my support for this war has dwindled to nothing and I can no longer find any solid evidence that we should continue the sherade in the middle east

Tom

[Electrophil]

Didn't read through a lot of the Jargan that consumes this thread... Academic prose do not impress me nor does the filler included... I have one question for Republican supporters

Why... why in God's name do you believe that the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism is a good idea?? Having researched ENORMOUS amounts of info on this subject, my support for this war has dwindled to nothing and I can no longer find any solid evidence that we should continue the sherade in the middle east

Tom

TomsSVX! I've never seen you down here in pundit land before. :D An actual stage III honors us!

I agree, no reason for it, and our military aren't suppose to be missionaries anyway.
I think that's about reason #3, but the most current reason.

[lhopp77]

The current crop of neocons are descendants of Nixon. They harp on Americanism and militarism, but few if any were in the military, most did all they could to stay out of it, and even those who were did "military light." Cheney, Rove, George Allen, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Dennis Hastert, and even "W", all public patriots who somehow or another missed out on the chance to fulfill their patriotism in Vietnam. So these "sofa soldiers" question the patriotism of John Kerry, Jim Webb and John Murtha, and Max Cleland.



So funny. As usual you only tell half of the story and forget the other half. What about good ol' Willie Boy Clinton---now he was a REAL draft dodger. And you poke fun at Bush for his service. I had a cousin in the Air National Guard that spent more time in Vietnam than Kerry did.

And good ol' Max---drops his own grenade in a safe base camp. A tragic accident, but hardly the thing to brag about or use as an example of heroism.

Closet gays??---I seem to recall some Demos that fit the same category, so don't forget that half of the story too.

Like you and your thoughts on McCain---I feel the same about Murtha.

Kerry is a totally different story. He should have been tried for treason.

I don't point fingers at those that serve---IN ANY MANNER. Whatever military service they were in, it was serving and they could have been deployed as we have seen in Iraqi Freedom. Draft dodgers and traitors are totally something else.

Why did you join the Navy instead of Army or Marines----maybe to "serve", but in the least likely service to see any real Vietnam duty. :) But, like I said---I don't seriously question that service either. At least you were serving your country and I respect that. Not everyone is cut out to be in Infantryman and serving in any capacity supports the total effort.

Lee

[Electrophil]

During the vietnam era, the Navy and Air Force did not take advantage of the draft. The draft was only being used by the Army and Marine Corps. Not one person was ever "drafted" into the Navy and Air Force. The exceptions would be the ones who didn't beat the lottery, and were able to manipulate the system and slide into the Navy/Air Force after their number was drawn.

So technically.... everyone in the Navy and Airforce were volunteers. They volunteered either due to patriotism, economics, or to beat the lottery. Probably a few more reasons there, but that would be the majority.

Some didn't beat the lottery, and they never volunteered for anything. They merely received a notice from the government ordering them to military service. And since only the Army and Marine Corps were using the draft......

People who blow up their own legs may be counted into that number, I haven't a clue what his motivations were. If he dropped a granade on himself, that wasn't the smartest move. But..... in the heat of battle, stuff happens.

I do know if I hear someone say "Then after I was drafted....", it dilutes in my mind any perceptions of a strong patriotism they may have. Not running off to Canada isn't a patriot in my eyes, it's merely someone following the traffic laws.

And volunteering.... is that a patriotic thing? Well, we all get out and say it is because we want to be proud of ourselves.

I'll be honest. My reason for joining was to get the heck out of Morristown Tn. I also had fantasies of hitting foreign ports and sleeping with exotic women. They turned out not to be exactly exotic, but they were inexpensive.

How I ended up staying in 21 years is still a mystery to me. It just kind of happened. Life is like that. Does that still give me certain rights to say certain things that non-veterans need to refrain from? Yes... it does. I still served. And that's where I agree with Lee. Bush did serve, and I respect that. It's the AWOL part I have the concern with. He wasn't following the traffic laws.

[lhopp77]

[QUOTE=Electrophil]
People who blow up their own legs may be counted into that number, I haven't a clue what his motivations were. If he dropped a granade on himself, that wasn't the smartest move. [QUOTE]

Again, I do not demean his service, just that he and other Demo leaders use him as a quad "hero" party mouthpiece. He dropped the grenade IN A SAFE BASE camp, NOT in the heat of battle as the commercials liked to imply. But he served honorably and would not have been mutilated if he had refused to serve. I only question the honesty of the implication of the circumstances.

There is still no proof that Bush was ever AWOL, so why do you still spread that fabrication????? He served all of his required time and was honorably discharged.

I have no problem with those that chose to beat the draft by joining the AF or Navy. Those services needed people also and at least they served. There were quite a few AF casualties in VN and they did a great job.

Lee

[Electrophil]

There is still no proof that Bush was ever AWOL, so why do you still spread that fabrication????? He served all of his required time and was honorably discharged.



Lee

So he didn't leave his cushy stateside position to go work on a campaign? During wartime?

[shotgunslade]

No need for me to post here any more.

Lee:

You don't deserve the experience of an SVX and that is the most damning thing I can say.

[lhopp77]

No need for me to post here any more.

Lee:

You don't deserve the experience of an SVX and that is the most damning thing I can say.

Watch the door. :p

Well, it seems opinions are like that proverbial part of the anatomy---everyone has one. :D

Actually, I think I have probably enjoyed the true experience of the SVX as it was designed and intended for longer than most current owners. I just took a trip yesterday---550 miles round trip on high speed roads and averaged better than 73 MPH for the entire trip (speed limit was 75 and it is safe to drive 85 without fear of a ticket). It is a medium high speed cruising, touring car and should be enjoyed as just that. Anything else is a abomination to its designers and builders. :D (Just my opinion)

Lee

[lhopp77]

So he didn't leave his cushy stateside position to go work on a campaign? During wartime?

Better than running to France to provide aid and comfort to the enemy while insulting former buddies that were still fighting. :rolleyes:

[TomsSVX]

Watch the door. :p

Well, it seems opinions are like that proverbial part of the anatomy---everyone has one. :D

Actually, I think I have probably enjoyed the true experience of the SVX as it was designed and intended for longer than most current owners. I just took a trip yesterday---550 miles round trip on high speed roads and averaged better than 73 MPH for the entire trip (speed limit was 75 and it is safe to drive 85 without fear of a ticket). It is a medium high speed cruising, touring car and should be enjoyed as just that. Anything else is a abomination to its designers and builders. :D (Just my opinion)

Lee

Lee, you are really barking up the wrong tree here. I love my SVX I drive both of them all the time. One is for the highway cruising and one is for kickin it... You don't even understand what kind of reality it is to get in a prepared car and take it on the track... Something you will pass on never experiencing and believe me when I say it, you are missing out.

Besides all that... No one has answered my question. A left leaner would be quick to answer this with bashes of current politcal leaders but I want to hear what a right winger has to say... You love your Republican Gov't so much, tell me why we are in Iraq and other places in the Middle East. And please Elaborate as to why the US will not sever it's military and economic ties with Isreal? The #1 reason Osama bin Laden sent the attacks of the African embassies in '98, to USS Cole in '00, and the attacks of 9/11/01 has been stated clearly by bin Laden that it is because of Islamic oppression due to American occupation of Saudi Arabi and the American Gov's ties with the Isreali gov't and military... So why do we push so hard to keep this?? Why does it cost so many US soldiers' lives that we do EXACTLY what bin Laden hates?? You cannot find him, you cannot beat him. Just back the **** out of the middle East and you can go back to your real issues at hand... Like why Right wingers HATE gay marraige... Don't even get me started on that... Who's ****ing business is it that two PEOPLE cannot get married. I grow tired of Right wing bull**** and I grow tired of their antics. It is a shame that we toss serving men's lives up in the meat grinder with all sense of open mindedness. Republicans need to get out of office

Tom

[Electrophil]

Well... Lee? Tom has some great questions there.

Care to let us in on these secrets?

Cause most of us haven't figured out why you are still supporting them.

[lhopp77]

Lee, you are really barking up the wrong tree here. I love my SVX I drive both of them all the time. One is for the highway cruising and one is for kickin it... You don't even understand what kind of reality it is to get in a prepared car and take it on the track... Something you will pass on never experiencing and believe me when I say it, you are missing out.

Besides all that... No one has answered my question. A left leaner would be quick to answer this with bashes of current politcal leaders but I want to hear what a right winger has to say... You love your Republican Gov't so much, tell me why we are in Iraq and other places in the Middle East. And please Elaborate as to why the US will not sever it's military and economic ties with Isreal? The #1 reason Osama bin Laden sent the attacks of the African embassies in '98, to USS Cole in '00, and the attacks of 9/11/01 has been stated clearly by bin Laden that it is because of Islamic oppression due to American occupation of Saudi Arabi and the American Gov's ties with the Isreali gov't and military... So why do we push so hard to keep this?? Why does it cost so many US soldiers' lives that we do EXACTLY what bin Laden hates?? You cannot find him, you cannot beat him. Just back the **** out of the middle East and you can go back to your real issues at hand... Like why Right wingers HATE gay marraige... Don't even get me started on that... Who's ****ing business is it that two PEOPLE cannot get married. I grow tired of Right wing bull**** and I grow tired of their antics. It is a shame that we toss serving men's lives up in the meat grinder with all sense of open mindedness. Republicans need to get out of office

Tom

In the first place--I have definitely driven "prepared" cars in my long years. Probably ones with more horsepower than you will ever drive.

As for Bin Laden---Clinton had him and did nothing about it---so much for left wingers.

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".

Gay marriage--you damn right I am against it. Marriage is for opposite sexes to propagate the species. Again, as I have stated before----I have NO problem with civil unions to protect property rights of gay couples.

Also, for the record the US has NEVER occupied Saudia Arabia.

As to our support for Israel. I happen to agree that many times we support them to much and go to far in that support. I DO however, believe they have the right to exist and deserve the support given any country in that effort. While Israel may cause problems for us with the Muslim world---I think you need to review the radical Muslim beliefs and stated goals before you assume that we would not have any problems if we did not support Israel. As a pragmatist, I also fully understand the neither of our political parties will sell Israel down the river.. Both the Democrats and Republicans depend on the money and the Democrats depend on the Jewish vote---they get 80 percent of it.

Lee

[TomsSVX]

In the first place--I have definitely driven "prepared" cars in my long years. Probably ones with more horsepower than you will ever drive.

-So you are saying you do not enjoy this?? I mean come on... The view of keeping all SVXi stock is as outdated as 8 tracks

As for Bin Laden---Clinton had him and did nothing about it---so much for left wingers.

- Clinton did not kill him then and there for one reason... He didn't have the backing of the rest of the Gov't to do it, so instead of assasinating him, he had his hands tied.

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".

- Take a look around any major city... You will find that a great deal homeless people are veterans, mostly of Vietnam and Korea. Why not ask these soldiers what they think of the war when they get home and have no jobs or homes to go to. Thanks to the excellent work of our government helping them to adapt back into society.

Gay marriage--you damn right I am against it. Marriage is for opposite sexes to propagate the species. Again, as I have stated before----I have NO problem with civil unions to protect property rights of gay couples.

- Once again your ignorance astounds me. Marriage is the holy union of two people to be seen under God as bound to eachother for the rest of their lives. Don't confuse that with the once again outdated ideals that sex comes after marraige. Sex is the way we repopulate this earth to be compeltely honest, less of it will lead to a decrease in the exploding birth rate which would be a very good thing for the entire earth. In short, your user title explains you outlook on this subject... Open your mind to new things or else you will be left behind. I know of a time when southern Whites refused the marriage of a black and a white... Guess what, that theory has **** the bucket and so will the subject of gay marriage. Whether you like it or not, their will be gay people and they will want to get married and people like me and anyone else who is worldly in any sense will agree... get out of the stone ages when homosexuality was a mental disorder:rolleyes:

Also, for the record the US has NEVER occupied Saudia Arabia.

- SO you are saying the U.S. Military never had a presence in Saudi Arabia?? just because they weren't controlling what was going on they were still there

As to our support for Israel. I happen to agree that many times we support them to much and go to far in that support. I DO however, believe they have the right to exist and deserve the support given any country in that effort. While Israel may cause problems for us with the Muslim world---I think you need to review the radical Muslim beliefs and stated goals before you assume that we would not have any problems if we did not support Israel. As a pragmatist, I also fully understand the neither of our political parties will sell Israel down the river.. Both the Democrats and Republicans depend on the money and the Democrats depend on the Jewish vote---they get 80 percent of it.

-Like I have mentioned earlier. I have done a great deal of research regarding Muslim beliefs. Osama will not stop there if we do withdrawl support from Isreal. The reason most of Americans are torn on the issue or lean so far to defending the war is a lack of information. To this day, not a single person in the US knows why Osama orchestrated the attacks of Semptember 11th. We only linked him to some people that were involved... In fact I still have a hard time believing that he was involved in a major way. He just took credit for it. Besides all of that, Do you know what % of the voting population is Jewish?? Even if the Demo's do have 80% of their vote... it is not substantial enough that it would be the downfall of any campaign.

You make good arguments but your logic and theology is WAY outdated. You are infact an Old Timer and I can honestly say this country is doomed to destruction until you stubborn old ****s get the **** out of office and into your retirement homes.

Lee

Sorry for the rant but I had to say it

Tom

[Manarius]

Even if we did stop supporting Israel, nothing around there would change. They've got the nukes, the armies, the people. I mean, come on, look how they beat the crap out of the Lebanese. The Middle East works as such: Ye who has the biggest gun rules the area. And, at this point in time, Israel's got the most guns and the biggest of them as well.

[TomsSVX]

and how do you suspect they got them??:rolleyes:

Tom

[Electrophil]

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".


Lee

Well, our military members will always support and obey the Commander in Chief. They will get their butts rightfully kicked otherwise.

But here's an excerpt about an editorial coming out in all the Military Times come monday:

"Rumsfeld has lost credibility with the uniformed leadership, with the troops, with Congress and with the public at large. His strategy has failed, and his ability to lead is compromised," the Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Corps Times said in an editorial to be published on Monday.

Like a broken record.....

The republican party no longer represents you, and they haven't for years. They are like a cheating wife that is getting laid right in front of you, and you are blaming a male prostitute that rode through town six years ago.

[RSVX]

This thread was pointless before it started.

You are BOTH so set in your ways, you REFUSE to see what other side has to say and just ramble on about your own crap.

[shotgunslade]

And good ol' Max---drops his own grenade in a safe base camp. A tragic accident, but hardly the thing to brag about or use as an example of heroism.



The 2nd of the 12th Cavalry was engaged in a combat operation at the time of this incident. Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone (some might call the entire country of Vietnam a combat zone). (Is Iraq a combat zone?) Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harms way.

As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of "ownership" went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.

Maury Cralle'
Battalion Executive Officer
2d/12th Cavalry Battalion
1st Air Cavalry Division
During the assault on Khe Shan


I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

[RSVX]

I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

Let's go ahead and add you to my statement above your post.

[lhopp77]

and how do you suspect they got them??:rolleyes:

Tom

Do I detect a bit of anti-semitic feelings??

This is worth repeating:

Israel: Amazing Little Country

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger, ICQ, was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S. Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from Silicon Valley, U.S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the U.S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four % of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12% hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews (Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union).

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in US hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside for cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors diagnose the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the US, over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany.With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California 's Mojave Desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.

Lee

[Electrophil]

I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

What? So he didn't drop his own granade? He was trying to save someone else? But Lee implied...

Ohh... My bad. Never trust a neo-con.
Especially when they are bragging about all our engineering jobs being exported to Israel.
That's my job you are talking about neo-freak.

[lhopp77]

I think you need to read Cleland's own book about the account. HE said it was his grenade. I will admit that I have often wondered what a SIGNAL officer (NOT EVEN A COMBAT ARMS OFFICER) was doing carrying a hand grenade----that would just be an accident looking for a place to happen. Anyway, while it was in a hostile fire area, it was NOT in a combat situation. He was in a BASE CAMP and not under hostile fire.

I will drop the issue even though I have many more thoughts on the subject that most of you would not understand since you don't know the various jobs and missions of the different branches in the Army. Or the way things are looked at for the performance of various branches. Infantry, Armor, Artillery are the Combat Arms Branches. Signal and Engineer are Combat Support Branches. In case you don't know----Cleland was a Signal Officer.

Lee

[Electrophil]

I was thinking I should help the neo-cons out.

So here ya go... This'll get you started. : Neo-Con Aid (http://www.uhaul.com/)

[TomsSVX]

I have stated my opinions and I have backed them up for the most part. I do not need to post here anymore because as I argue my points, your responses to multiple issues become thinner and thinner. Maybe you have seen the light and will travel down a road of an open mind?? Ah who am I kidding, your a right winger all the way;) <--- This face means I am kidding. I did not mean to go on the rants I did and I apologize for anything I said that was offensive to you. I do hope you can look at things with an equal balance. If you must, I have a lot of information that you might want to see that describes my point of view.

Tom

[Electrophil]

I'm just wanting to be supportive in the neo-con's time of crisis. I feel for them in their crushing loss. We should try to help them as much as possible. I've already helped a little.

Here's some more help, just giving you answers to those nagging questions -> More Neo-con support (http://www.unitedvanlines.com/mover/)