Brake Conversion Questions

[curly2k3]

Well my brakes needed to be resurfaced/ changed anyways, so i am finally going to try what i have been meaning to do for the past 2 years now, upgrade all around. my buddy owns a professional machine shop and has slotted rotors on corvettes for almost 10years now, and we are going to do mine...anyways, i have recently gotten a hold of a full set of brake parts, so i am going on with my intentions to do slotted brakes front and rear, however i am putting the second set of front brakes on the rear as well, meaning all 4 corners will brake well now. i have been pondering this for the past two years, the only two questions i have are what should i do for mounting the calipers on the rear? and should the brake booster be able to support this in stock form?

[Pure_Insanity8]

Not sure, but I think that it would throw off the braking bias... and that could be very bad.:eek:

[curly2k3]

um... well its split power at the booster tho... i guess i can test it and see too!

[oab_au]

Well my brakes needed to be resurfaced/ changed anyways, so i am finally going to try what i have been meaning to do for the past 2 years now, upgrade all around. my buddy owns a professional machine shop and has slotted rotors on corvettes for almost 10years now, and we are going to do mine...anyways, i have recently gotten a hold of a full set of brake parts, so i am going on with my intentions to do slotted brakes front and rear, however i am putting the second set of front brakes on the rear as well, meaning all 4 corners will brake well now. i have been pondering this for the past two years, the only two questions i have are what should i do for mounting the calipers on the rear? and should the brake booster be able to support this in stock form?

The rear end of the car hasn't the weight to use the power of the front units. You would have to reduce the pressure to prevent lock up. So you might as well use less brake at the rear.

No hand brake either.

Harvey.;)

[michael]

If I'm not mistaken Aussie SVXs have vented rear rotors and bigger caliapers. Mabey someone can hook you up with a setup like that ;) :D

[oab_au]

If I'm not mistaken Aussie SVXs have vented rear rotors and bigger caliapers. Mabey someone can hook you up with a setup like that ;) :D

Yes Michael, you are mistaken,:) we didn't get them:( I think it was just the JDM and UK that got the vented rear discs.

Harvey.;)

[SilverSpear]

Yes Michael, you are mistaken,:) we didn't get them:( I think it was just the JDM and UK that got the vented rear discs.

Harvey.;)

MINE ALSO :p :p

[floatingkiwi]

Yes Michael, you are mistaken,:) we didn't get them:( I think it was just the JDM and UK that got the vented rear discs.

Harvey.;)

I've got them! hehe:)

Actually, I didn't know there was a difference. I hope the race concepts rears that are waiting for me at home will fit! argghh:eek:

[michael]

If they are solid I will trade you caliapers :D

[mohrds]

I believe the rear vented discs use the same diameter disc, same mounting setup, same parking brake setup, same size piston, just a deeper caliper to accommodate the wider rotor.

As for matching calipers front and rear, you would have to remove the stock proportioning valve and replace it with an adjustable one. Too much rear brake power would throw the back end around when you try to stop. Technically, the ABS will kick in and control it, but it will still be an unstable stop.

What I want do when I have spare money is to replace the brakes with a Wilwood Powerlite or similar setup. 4 piston calipers up front and 2 piston in the rears with the parking brake hats. That would be mated to a custom proportioning valve and a larger master cylinder to prevent excessive pedal travel during braking.

I believe the stock wheels will hold a 12.19" rotor, but Its been a few years since I looked at the specs to remember for sure.

Doug

[benebob]

The rear end of the car hasn't the weight to use the power of the front units. You would have to reduce the pressure to prevent lock up. So you might as well use less brake at the rear.

No hand brake either.

Harvey.;)

Harvey is on the right track here. The rear of our race car will actually lift off the ground and skip under too hard of braking. NOT A VERY COMFORTING THING! Closest thing I can relate it to is hard front braking on a cycle if that helps fill ya in on the lack of control you'll have. Best advice would be to change your fluid on a regular basis and use decent quality pads and solid rotors for street feel and braking strength, unless you wanna get into the biasing of the brakes which with abs would be quite tricky and honestly I don't think it'll work out the way you want it too in the long run. The SVX had VERY good brakes for its time. Sure they are prone to fade but for normal driving you're still braking faster than 1/2 the vehicles made today from 70 so long as your system is in good shape and your tires are same quality as oems

The threshold for caliper and bracket space is 13.1 at their current location.

[mohrds]

The threshold for caliper and bracket space is 13.1 at their current location.

Thanks. I will dig out my old brake spreadsheet and add that detail to it.

[curly2k3]

yeah i knew i would be in need of an adjustable proprtioning valve, me and my father are each in need of one, his for the streetrod. intresting thought about the race car tho, as i plan to auto-x this ALOT next season, what are you running for all of your brakes on the race car? did you keep the ABS? Are you running a different proportioning valve?

[benebob]

yeah i knew i would be in need of an adjustable proprtioning valve, me and my father are each in need of one, his for the streetrod. intresting thought about the race car tho, as i plan to auto-x this ALOT next season, what are you running for all of your brakes on the race car? did you keep the ABS? Are you running a different proportioning valve?

Advance auto specials in the rear, axis pads up front. OEM rotors that WE CAN'T WARP! Oh we've sheared a rear caliper from heat as well so they're getting warm. No proportioning valve as it doesn't fit into grassroots budget and our season is over aside from that. Next year we'll have 2 as the brakes are diagonal and need to be diag for racing.

Doug, check out our posting about wheels under the oz set up. It gives the specs needed for tires and what will fit etc.

[newsvx]

Curley,
I run a "stock" SVX in autocross (G STOCK class), and I use the stock rotors with AXXIS semi-metalic pads, front and rear. No problems at all, and as BENEBOB says, the SVX stock brakes were excellent when made ('92 thru '97), and even today, the brakes are better than most, especially with the AXXIS pads. For autocross, I would not go to the expense and trouble to change anything but the pads. When I run track events, I do, however, change the rotors to drilled and slotted due to the better heat disipation.

Harry

[TomsSVX]

rears should be fine. Even the track raced SVX shotgunslade drives is able to use stock calipers with slotted rotors and his car stops on a dime. Unless you find yourself running the car on a road course and you are well over stock power, there really is no need to upgrade tha calipers, just setup the stock system nicely

Tom

[curly2k3]

well thats actually part of it, this car will be auto-x'd and road raced next season, and ice raced this winter. I am also in the process to build a second motor which will be needless to say not stock.

[benebob]

well thats actually part of it, this car will be auto-x'd and road raced next season, and ice raced this winter. I am also in the process to build a second motor which will be needless to say not stock.

Exactly why you don't need bigger brakes. You can only stop as quick as your tires allow remember and if you can lock your brakes up you have more than enough braking ability. Then again, if you wanna look "cool" wasting money that's a totally different story.

[TomsSVX]

Ben is right. The only time you need to upgrade brakes is when they are insuficient. The SVX brakes are sufficient and unless you are gaining weight with your race car, they will be fine if setup properly

Tom

[svxstarship]

So are you saying the SVX brakes will not fade under hard use?

[Earthworm]

So are you saying the SVX brakes will not fade under hard use?I believe he's saying that most drivers never drive their cars hard enough to warrant the bigger brakes.

[shotgunslade]

I have not noticed any significant brake fade in the several times I've taken it to the track. I did notice my rear pads smoking one time when I came in (Metal Masters). I often cause the anti-lock to come on when approaching turns. I also usually outbrake most of the cars I run with. My instructors have also commented on how well the car brakes.

[TomsSVX]

I believe he's saying that most drivers never drive their cars hard enough to warrant the bigger brakes.


Ding ding dign... Even our racing community has yet to outdrive their brakes on road courses.

Tom

[benebob]

So are you saying the SVX brakes will not fade under hard use?

Of course they will just as any brake will fade when you're beyond the temp limits of the fluid (which for 95% of people is the boiling point of water since they don't change their fluids at the very least every 2 years).

Only brake fade I ever experienced was due to old fluid and 20 minutes or so on the track which turned my water to steam. Aside from that we're actually looking at DECREASING our braking ability up front to make it more predictable.

Does the SVX have the braking feel of an exotic, definately not but its far from 80s GM brake feel either. Until you can't lock your brakes up at speed you don't need bigger brakes.

[curly2k3]

and what if i have locked up my brakes at speed on the course? :D (i have too)

[TomsSVX]

then your brakes are obviously suitable. You need to learn to control them better thats all

Tom

[shotgunslade]

Boiled some old brake fluid myself second time I took it to the track. Didnt know what it was at the time. Definitely should change brake fluid every six months if you're going to the track. Use Wilwood 570, pretty good stuff.

[benebob]

Here you go on what will/won't improve braking.

Slotted, dimpled, drilled rotors (not a bit actually you loose braking some braking ability as you decrease the friction surface). Only real advantages are they cool quicker thus braking fade comes in later but in reality its cheaper to buy better brake fluid with a higher boiling point. Sure they can have less tendency to warp but they also have a greater tendency to crack.

SS lines- (do nothing for braking distances) Only advantage is they provide a better feel compared to rubber but a line simply pushes fluid through the system. Of course you're gonna think you're braking better if you replace 13 year old rubber with SS but in reality its due to your old lines being well beyond their proper wear life (about 5 years at most) then you just changed and bled fluid which if you read further you'll see what that does.

Tires- better traction tires will increase your stopping ability.

ABS- increases stopping distances but keeps ya from locking up. Give and take situation. For street and the average driver be very thankful they're out there but other than that there really aren't too many advantages

Brake fluid- NEEDS TO BE CHANGED AT LEAST EVERY 2 years. Takes on water which boils at a low temp so when it boils you have drastic fade. A good quality fluid will not shorten stopping distances but it will give you better feel, a more consistant pedal and will keep fade to the level where you're cooking your components anyways so fade is just telling you to drive smarter or start replacing warped/cracked rotors, seized calipers etc.

MC- will effect pedal feel and should be resealed about ever 5 years. Does absolutely nothing for stopping distances though as it ages. Sure changing to another MC might but it might not too depends on the system as only a certain amount of fluid can travel through the lines at a time.

Brake pads- can both increase temps of the system as well as increase/decrease stopping distances depending on metallic content, condition and overall quality and ingredients.

I'm not saying braking abilty can't be improved upon but in reality the system is darn good for its age and weight of the car, if taken care of it is the last thing I'd think of upgrading. Save the money and go to a driving school. You'll brake better after than any upgrade for that money would have given ya anyways.;)

[UberRoo]

I think integrating a proportioning valve would be mighty tricky without removing the ABS. The diagonally linked braking system kinda makes that a bugger to do. I was thinking about installing a solenoid brake lock, like the B&M Launch Control - you know, just for fun - but it requires two valves on a stock SVX.

Also, I toasted my old semi-metallic pads almost right away. I've since upgraded to metallic pads, but I still routinely experience brake fade during spirited driving. Then again, I really use my brakes. I would propose to drivers who don't experience brake fade that you may simply not using them enough. Some tracks aren't long enough, or have enough speed variation to warrant that much brake use, but under-utilizing the brakes is extremely common. Extremely hard, last-minute braking nets you good times, but it generates a lot of heat. In fact, as a general rule, the faster you are, the harder it is on your car. Constant full-throttle to full-braking is pretty abusive.

[NeedForSpeed]

Since you have experience replacing brake fluid at regular intervals, could you post the procedure that you have found to work best for you. Like everything else, after doing a job a time or two, one learns the 'tricks'.

Thanks for the informative posts.

Of course they will just as any brake will fade when you're beyond the temp limits of the fluid (which for 95% of people is the boiling point of water since they don't change their fluids at the very least every 2 years).

Only brake fade I ever experienced was due to old fluid and 20 minutes or so on the track which turned my water to steam. Aside from that we're actually looking at DECREASING our braking ability up front to make it more predictable.

Does the SVX have the braking feel of an exotic, definately not but its far from 80s GM brake feel either. Until you can't lock your brakes up at speed you don't need bigger brakes.

[benebob]

I think integrating a proportioning valve would be mighty tricky without removing the ABS. The diagonally linked braking system kinda makes that a bugger to do. I was thinking about installing a solenoid brake lock, like the B&M Launch Control - you know, just for fun - but it requires two valves on a stock SVX.

Also, I toasted my old semi-metallic pads almost right away. I've since upgraded to metallic pads, but I still routinely experience brake fade during spirited driving. Then again, I really use my brakes. I would propose to drivers who don't experience brake fade that you may simply not using them enough. Some tracks aren't long enough, or have enough speed variation to warrant that much brake use, but under-utilizing the brakes is extremely common. Extremely hard, last-minute braking nets you good times, but it generates a lot of heat. In fact, as a general rule, the faster you are, the harder it is on your car. Constant full-throttle to full-braking is pretty abusive.

Change your entire fluid to a decent fluid and get rid of your metallic pads. That isn't an upgrade. Metallic pads are worse for fade as they cause more heat. After both Dave and I use our car the wheels are around 250 degrees. You don't do that on the street unless you do 150-0 stops 30 times in a row.

[benebob]

Since you have experience replacing brake fluid at regular intervals, could you post the procedure that you have found to work best for you. Like everything else, after doing a job a time or two, one learns the 'tricks'.

Thanks for the informative posts.

Sure, go buy some speed bleeders. Replace your bleeders with those (ALWAYS USE A FLARE NUT WRENCH!!!) Speed bleeders let you open it w/o having air get sucked in when you push the pedal.
1. Suck out most of the fluid with a turkey baster from the resevoir
2. Fill it with fresh fluid and put the cap on both the fluid and the top of the resevoir (don't tighten it)
3. Bleed to the ABS pump bleeders.
Slowly push the pedal in stopping about 3/4 of the way then release it. Have a friend on the other end with a clear hose and clear bottle draining the fluid until it runs clear (old fluid gets kinda nasty looking). Make sure the resevoir stays above the low mark if it goes below you need to start over.
Repete 2 and 3 for the wheels. I always do it closest to the pump first followed by the opposite rear then the other front then the other rear but have read different versions of the order. Be sure to do it diagonally though.

I also have a Mighty Vac pump that works well when you're by yourself. Costs about $30.

It'll take a quart or less of fluid and then throw that fluid out. You can't reuse it as it takes on water.

Expect to spend about 3 hours on it your first time. With speed bleeders we can do our racer (no pump) in about 15 minutes when its on the trailer as we can get axcess w/o taking the wheel off. Be sure to soak those bleeder valves for a week or so first to ensure they aren't seized. Trust me it sucks breaking one off in a caliper. If you're using the new speed bleeders then get yourself some 6 point sockets that are long enough to fit on there for the removal.

[UberRoo]

...get rid of your metallic pads. That isn't an upgrade. Metallic pads are worse for fade as they cause more heat.

What options are available as an upgrade from metallic pads?

Also, I don't see how metallic pads can cause more heat. Braking should always generate the exact same amount of heat regardless of the means used to slow down. Where that heat goes, and how efficiently it's dissipated can vary. I've never heard that metallic pads cause more heat. Can you explain what you mean?

[curly2k3]

my think is definately brake fade...its really bad IMO, when i am on the course and am constantly on/off the gas to brakes i notice it really bad, especially coming out of the cicane and they throw a 65-75 to zero end poing right at you. I have been looking into stainless lines and have been trying different brake fluids, however i have not tried wilwoods yet. also, have any of you racers removed the ABS?I have a couple of friends that are EXTREMELY into auto-x adn they said removing it would give me a much better feel for the vehicle, they said next to corner weighting its one of the better things you can do to get a better overall feel on the track...any thoughts on this?

[benebob]

What options are available as an upgrade from metallic pads?

Also, I don't see how metallic pads can cause more heat. Braking should always generate the exact same amount of heat regardless of the means used to slow down. Where that heat goes, and how efficiently it's dissipated can vary. I've never heard that metallic pads cause more heat. Can you explain what you mean?

Did ya take Physics in high school. Metal on metal isn't nearly as good as metal on say ceramic or aspestos (which was actually probably the best material for braking). Metal means your brakes last longer but they also retain heat rather than helping to disapate it. Just as the softer the pad bits better then the harder pad which results in quicker stops with less pedal feel. Metallic pads are well hard so then you have that issue going against you as well.

[benebob]

my think is definately brake fade...its really bad IMO, when i am on the course and am constantly on/off the gas to brakes i notice it really bad, especially coming out of the cicane and they throw a 65-75 to zero end poing right at you. I have been looking into stainless lines and have been trying different brake fluids, however i have not tried wilwoods yet. also, have any of you racers removed the ABS?I have a couple of friends that are EXTREMELY into auto-x adn they said removing it would give me a much better feel for the vehicle, they said next to corner weighting its one of the better things you can do to get a better overall feel on the track...any thoughts on this?

Driving skill or lack there of it has a lot to do with cooking brakes, sounds like you'd probably cook them on a vette as well if you're cooking them on a 60 second course with at least 5 minutes of cool down between runs. No I'm not cutting on you in the least bit. Keep in mind you need to slow down to go fast. On and off of the gas to brakes does not make a very fast driver in any car. My bet is that an above average driver could go around the same course using the parking brake only in the same car faster than someone who can cause brake fade in a properly functioning system.

As for stainless lines did you not read what I wrote? They will do absolutely nothing for you as far as fade except cost you about $100 that could've been better spent elsewhere. Yes it will give you a better pedal feel but that is all.

Removing the ABS is dumb for a car that's driven on the street. It is there for a reason and again for 1992 it was a top of the line system. Better than the Vette had even! The only time ABS works is when you here it and if you're hearing it then you should be very glad you have it otherwise you probably would've just gone into a spin on the course or street.

Corner weighing does absolutely nothing for you except tell you how to set up a car, again a waste of money unless you're gonna use it for something like adjusting ride height to even out weight, setting an alignment etc. Sure its helpful to know what it is to an experienced person driving anothers car but an average driver will know after their first run which side is lighter etc.

[svxstarship]

Maybe I should have tried the Axxis pads on the many brake jobs I did on my 92. I tried KVR pads and others, with new rotors every time, flushed brake fluid, used high quality brake fluid, torqued the lug nuts, lubed the slide pins. Rotors warped ( or deposits ) every time in short order. Hard brake use might have been a factor. When I got my 96 it seemed to have a fresh brake job and they didn't last either. I seem to recall many of the intial reviews mentioning the brakes not standing up to hard driving. How about the recent review on TV by Cazzer ( or something ) on Sports Car Revolution where he mentions the car needing better brakes? How many posts are there on this form mentioning warped rotors? I could never get the abs to kick in at higher speeds.

[UberRoo]

Did ya take Physics in high school. Metal on metal isn't nearly as good as metal on say ceramic or aspestos (which was actually probably the best material for braking). Metal means your brakes last longer but they also retain heat rather than helping to disapate it. Just as the softer the pad bits better then the harder pad which results in quicker stops with less pedal feel. Metallic pads are well hard so then you have that issue going against you as well.
I'm afraid they didn't cover the friction properties of ceramics, asbestos, or metal in my high school. I'm rather fond of metallic pads because they don't turn to butter after one hard stop, but rather require quite a bit of abuse before they reach the temperature of uselessness. Also, the hotter the brakes, the greater the temperature differential, and thus the more effectively they can dissipate heat. A higher temperature useful-braking threshold allows for more heat dissipation, which will prolong the onset of brake fade.

What the best available pad options for the SVX? I seem to recall that ceramics are the ultimate, but not exactly a viable option.

[shotgunslade]

I warped and cracked the drilled and slotted Race Concepts front rotors I had before. I have been using Axxis Ultimate pads on the front this season, and did not experience any deposits on the rotors. I know some drivers who practice laps with minimum brake use to perfect their line, but getting on the brakes really hard at the end of the straight is the fastest way around. Pulling it down from 120+ to 50 every 2 minutes for half an hour with several other 100-90 down to 50-40 episodes in between will definitely get your brakes hot. Like I said, my rear pads have smoked at the end of a session. The question that SVXfiles asked, "do you break loose or invoke the anti-lock often" is the real quesiton. If the answer is yes, then your tires are the limitation. If it is no, then your rotor/pads/calipers are the problem. As for anti-lock brakes, most drivers, including myself are not good enough to do as well without anti-lock as they do with it. It takes very good feel. I know, because the Porsche 911 I had before the SVX didn't have anti-lock, and it would lock up pretty easily.

[benebob]

I'm afraid they didn't cover the friction properties of ceramics, asbestos, or metal in my high school. I'm rather fond of metallic pads because they don't turn to butter after one hard stop, but rather require quite a bit of abuse before they reach the temperature of uselessness. Also, the hotter the brakes, the greater the temperature differential, and thus the more effectively they can dissipate heat. A higher temperature useful-braking threshold allows for more heat dissipation, which will prolong the onset of brake fade.

What the best available pad options for the SVX? I seem to recall that ceramics are the ultimate, but not exactly a viable option.

Do you know where brake fade comes from? It comes from brake fluid changing from fluid to vapor. Pads and Rotors have nothing to do with fade aside from how they act when hot and the heat they transfer to the caliper and fluid when hot. Nothing more nothing less.

[benebob]

Maybe I should have tried the Axxis pads on the many brake jobs I did on my 92. I tried KVR pads and others, with new rotors every time, flushed brake fluid, used high quality brake fluid, torqued the lug nuts, lubed the slide pins. Rotors warped ( or deposits ) every time in short order. Hard brake use might have been a factor. When I got my 96 it seemed to have a fresh brake job and they didn't last either. I seem to recall many of the intial reviews mentioning the brakes not standing up to hard driving. How about the recent review on TV by Cazzer ( or something ) on Sports Car Revolution where he mentions the car needing better brakes? How many posts are there on this form mentioning warped rotors? I could never get the abs to kick in at higher speeds.

I replaced my front rotors 2 years ago on my road SVX. They were the originals and were worn out at 140k from wear. Not a bit of warp to them. I autoxed it probably about 10 times with a 20 minute driver school using your average $15 Pep Boys pad. Now if I wanted to I could go out and warp the rotors in 15 minutes but understanding limitations and abilities do more for me then writing checks to replace things I broke while doing things I shouldn't have been.

As for test saying things need this and that. That is opinions and yes when you drive a Ferarri from 10 years ago today you'll say it needs better brakes too.

There are plenty of posts on this forum about how bad the transmission is too but yet how does it compare to an auto out of a Vette, Mitsu 3000 or a 300z? Quite well in fact!

[svxstarship]

Just some interesting sites on the causes of brake fade..

Brake fade...
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=78
http://www.spdusa.com/brake1.htm
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/brake_performance.html
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
http://people.ucsc.edu/~kbrandt/mustang/brakfade.shtml
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22750-1560640,00.html

[TomsSVX]

Well here is the thing... Some of us warp brakes like there is no tomorrow, some of us get the brakes way too hot and begin to feel brake fade, and then some of us can race the car without destroying brakes... THink about it... is it the car or the driver?? If these cars were all setup the same, I have a feeling the results would match. You need to learn how to brake the car properly, then and only then ar you say the brakes are insufficient. My silver's brakes have been through hell and back since I installed them at Reading and they have seen many miles since then. They are still straight and still have plenty of meat on them. I used DOT4 synthetic fluid and habe not ONCE felt fade and they have not warped or deposited since... While some people can tear a set of brakes apart in 2 months only driving on the street. Seriously, if you ar ehaving issues with your brakes on a short course(less than 5 minutes) you should inves in a driving school. They will teah you how to use what you have much better

Tom

[UberRoo]

Brake fade is a general term for when the brakes effectiveness 'fades'.

The type of fade I routinely experience is a very stiff pedal that doesn't do a damn thing. (Pad fade.)

I’ve yet to experience the spongy pedal symptoms of boiling brake fluid. (Fluid fade.) This type of fade doesn't immediately reduce the overall stopping ability - only increases pedal travel. Once there's no travel left, then the stopping ability is affected, but symptoms should be evident before that happens.

For normal driving, the brakes on any modern car are more than adequate. For normal driving, the SVXs' brakes are exceptionally good, but then, the SVX is a sports car with a powerful engine. Usually the engineers take that sort of thing into account because they expect that a sports car will occasionally be driven like one. The SVX is not a racing car however, and its brakes are not adequate for aggressive racing. In my experience, to say marginal would be generous.

The universal limiting factor on brakes seems to be wheel size. I've seen well-funded race teams that are simply unable to fit a large enough rotor inside the wheels. They have the best parts money can buy, but still experience brake fade. Carbon pads under umpteenzillion pot calipers, with massive, drilled, slotted, uber-vented disks, and they're still glowing red hot and blowing corners 'cause they can't slow down. Whatever the case, in aggressive racing, aggressive use of the brakes is required and sometimes driving slower is the only solution.

When I got my SVX, I immediately ruined my disks by cooking them with semi-metallic pads. I had them turned, and so far, they've fared pretty well with the metallic pads, considering what I've put them through. I did a thorough break-in, and I haven't had any problems - just fade. I've been very careful never to come to a complete stop until the disks have a chance to cool. Aside from larger disks, it appears there's nothing more that can be done to improve braking unless you're willing to let carbon pads eat your rotors.

[benebob]

Aside from larger disks, it appears there's nothing more that can be done to improve braking unless you're willing to let carbon pads eat your rotors.

... Or you could simply learn to drive right;) . As both Tom and I explained we don't have carbon pads, in fact I've never had carbon pads on any car I've owned and suprise suprise, I'll bet both of us could out brake you in your car set up how you want it.

FYI the average wheel size for racing is a 15 inch rim not a 20 so I don't know where you get you're thoughts on disk size aside from overcompensating for lack of size elsewhere. Lets call it Hummeritis.:D

[curly2k3]

i know my driving style on the course isnt the ideal one, however my friend that is leading points with his WRX agreed with me on all of my complaints about the brake system, so i dont think that a person thats been to 2 driving schools and leads points is wrong either. dont get me wrong, i think they are great for daily driving and street use, and on the track the only times i have any problems is in places where is on and off alot in a short period of time followed by a fast stop for the finish.

[benebob]

i know my driving style on the course isnt the ideal one, however my friend that is leading points with his WRX agreed with me on all of my complaints about the brake system, so i dont think that a person thats been to 2 driving schools and leads points is wrong either. dont get me wrong, i think they are great for daily driving and street use, and on the track the only times i have any problems is in places where is on and off alot in a short period of time followed by a fast stop for the finish.

Your freind drives a new car with new brakes, you don't. Go drive an 92 Subaru Loyale and you'll complain about the brakes impensly and that vehicle was made the same year as yours. Change your fluid and get quality pads. You won't have a problem provided you drive properly. There is no need for a fast stop at the finish. You've already passed the gate.

[curly2k3]

i beg to differ, not about the car stuff but the course, you come through the cicane and have to come to damn near a dead stop before a 90* turn out of the course always, its basiacally a coned shoot that you have to come to almost a stop in before you turn out. but yeah, i think i will buy some wilwood fluid and some different pads then go from there

[shotgunslade]

I guess I don't understand. Do we have 2 alternate realities here. I've never experienced significant fade, except for some minor fluid fade. I would have to guess that my 20 to 30 minute sessions on a road course would be more stressful on the brakes than a 30 second autocross run. I know that one of the functions of slotting or even drilling the rotors is to relieve gas from the pads which might otherwise decrease pad rotor contact. I'm wondering if that is the cause of your fade.

[benebob]

I guess I don't understand. Do we have 2 alternate realities here. I've never experienced significant fade, except for some minor fluid fade. I would have to guess that my 20 to 30 minute sessions on a road course would be more stressful on the brakes than a 30 second autocross run. I know that one of the functions of slotting or even drilling the rotors is to relieve gas from the pads which might otherwise decrease pad rotor contact. I'm wondering if that is the cause of your fade.

Yeah, me thinks there is something majorly wrong with his system. Dave and I can run in the same heat 5 minutes apart and do nothing to our braking ability.

[UberRoo]

... Or you could simply learn to drive right...
Professional drivers (i.e., competent drivers) suffer from inadequate brakes just the same as the rest of us. You know those air ducts around the disks on NASCAR and Formula-1 cars? They're not for cosmetic purposes. I'm fairly certain those guys know what they're doing.

"Driving right" uses a LOT of braking. The idea is to spend as little time braking as possible, but braking as hard as possible during those times. You spend more time traveling at a higher rate of speed. The whole concept of late-braking in a nutshell.

Some tracks have nothing but high-speed corners and require relatively little braking while the rest of the time is throttle-open driving with plenty of cooling time. Other tracks are little more than a series of straightaways and hard stops followed by an abrupt corner. The correct way to brake on a track like that will kill your brakes.

[benebob]

Professional drivers (i.e., competent drivers) suffer from inadequate brakes just the same as the rest of us. You know those air ducts around the disks on NASCAR and Formula-1 cars? They're not for cosmetic purposes. I'm fairly certain those guys know what they're doing.

"Driving right" uses a LOT of braking. The idea is to spend as little time braking as possible, but braking as hard as possible during those times. You spend more time traveling at a higher rate of speed. The whole concept of late-braking in a nutshell.

Some tracks have nothing but high-speed corners and require relatively little braking while the rest of the time is throttle-open driving with plenty of cooling time. Other tracks are little more than a series of straightaways and hard stops followed by an abrupt corner. The correct way to brake on a track like that will kill your brakes.


Obviously you're smarter than anybody else here that doesn't have the issues you complain of. Sorry to insult such an excellent drive. Just don't kill anybody with your excellence.:rolleyes:

[UberRoo]

Obviously you're smarter than anybody else here that doesn't have the issues you complain of. Sorry to insult such an excellent drive. Just don't kill anybody with your excellence.:rolleyes:

I haven't heard any brilliant solutions. What do you propose I do about brake fade? Not use the brakes?

[NeedForSpeed]

As often as you change brake fluid, you must have a favorite. What is your favorite fluid and who makes your favorite svx brake pads.

Thanks again, great thread.

Your freind drives a new car with new brakes, you don't. Go drive an 92 Subaru Loyale and you'll complain about the brakes impensly and that vehicle was made the same year as yours. Change your fluid and get quality pads. You won't have a problem provided you drive properly. There is no need for a fast stop at the finish. You've already passed the gate.

[ItsPeteReally]

It might be interesting to see what braking performance is actually required required to stop a standard SVX from various speeds.

These are only ‘rough and ready’ calculations, someone else can refine them further, if they feel the need, but I feel that they are fairly representative.

Lets assume that the standard car weighs around 1590 kilograms and that the total weight of all four brake disks is 20 kilograms, and that the specific heat of iron is 449 Joules per kilogram per degree centigrade.

We will brake the car from 3 different speeds at 0.8g deceleration.

Firstly a 60 mph stop. (26.6 m/s).

Kinetic energy dissipated (½mv²) = 565333 joules
Time to stop = (37.5/9.8)/0.8= 4.78 seconds
Average brake power dissipation = 166 kW.
Average brake disc temperature rise = 63° C.
This is a little over simplified; in real life the front brakes would do more of the work, the rears less.

Assuming a 70:30 braking bias.
Front brake temperature rise = 88 ° C
Rear brake temperature rise = 38° C

Now a 100 mph stop. (44.4 m/s).

Kinetic energy dissipated (½mv²) = 1570370 joules
Time to stop = (44.4/9.8)/0.8= 5.66 seconds
Average brake power dissipation = 277 kW.
Average brake disc temperature rise = 175° C.

Assuming a 70:30 braking bias.
Front brake temperature rise = 245 ° C
Rear brake temperature rise = 105° C

Now a 150 mph stop. (66.7 m/s).

Kinetic energy dissipated (½mv²) = 3533333.333 joules
Time to stop = (66.7/9.8)/0.8= 8.5 seconds
Average brake power dissipation = 415.5 kW.
Average brake disc temperature rise = 393° C.

Assuming a 70:30 braking bias.
Front brake temperature rise = 551 ° C
Rear brake temperature rise = 236° C

It is interesting to note that, in the last case, the front discs will be visibly glowing red!

So what does this tell us?

We can be reasonably confident that Subaru designed the standard braking system to cope with at least one 150 mph stop. Stops from more reasonable speeds put considerably less energy into the braking system.

Repeated stops and the capacity of the braking system to recover from them is perhaps a more worrying feature. I can envisage no disc venting system being able to dissipate meaningful quantities of heat in short time periods. I suspect that many brake upgrades are more for show than for go (or should that be stop?).

So what upgrade would work? Well there really is only one that can make a significant difference, and that is to fit a larger and heavier disc. Its additional mass will mean less temperature rise, and its larger surface area will provide greater heat dissipation. There are downsides to this approach too, more unsprung weight and more expense being the most important ones.

If you think you have braking problems then it is probably due to a defect in the standard setup.

Finally, boiling brake fluid is not brake fade, it is catastrophic brake system failure.

[benebob]

As often as you change brake fluid, you must have a favorite. What is your favorite fluid and who makes your favorite svx brake pads.

Thanks again, great thread.

Valvoline sythetic. Cheap and 7/8ths as good as race fluid for 1/4 the cost. Rear pads, anything you want as it really doesn't matter, fronts we have axis front pads on our racer but they're very messy. I don't drive my street SVX much anymore so usually just put on a decent set of ceramics.

[benebob]

I haven't heard any brilliant solutions. What do you propose I do about brake fade? Not use the brakes?


Then you obviously can't read. You're a waste of my time so enjoy being an idiot.

[UberRoo]

The feeling is mutual.

[benebob]

Finally, boiling brake fluid is not brake fade, it is catastrophic brake system failure.

Techinically your right but keep in mind that most people tend to assume that they are experiencing fade when the fluid/water reaches that point and probably 99% of on road brake loss is boiling fluid/water. Since very few people actually change their fluid over the life of a vehicle its easier to lump it in there then explain it otherwise.

[TomsSVX]

to sum it up with personal feelings aside, the brakes on the SVX are adequate enough even for racing. Just set the system up best that works for you... If you still warp brakes or experience brake fade(not a tired leg) then go ahead and upgrade to something else. I have a feeling you will not find the thousands of dollars invested in bigger brakes worth it:rolleyes:

A good piece of advice from a very knowledgable racer, quiet and smooth is almost always faster than loud and rough

Tom

[shotgunslade]

If we could get past the acrimony, I'm very interested that different owners have had different experiences with their brakes. I believe that I push my brakes pretty hard on the track. The east course at Pocono is almost an AutoX course. It has a lot of turns and a lot of braking. Peak speed on the straight, for me, is a little over 100 mph, and there is a really tight hairpin. I also know my sessions are long compared with autoX. Yet, the only problems I have had are the following. Occasional smoking rear pads, One instance of boiling brake fluid (with year old fluid). One instance of being low on fluid (that day involved six 30 minute track sessions at Pocono) One cracked rotor and strange non-contact areas (showed rust ring in middle of rotor circumference) on both front and rear rotors (from that same 3 hour track day) . Both the above were solved by replacing pads, brake fluid and replacing front rotors with slotted only FrozenRotors.

I cannot say I have been aware of any real brake fading, except for a spongey pedal at the end of the 3 hour track day. I also know that I often brake much harder than others in my group (HPDE 2), because I close with those in front of me at the start of turns.

I have never been to the track with stock rotors. Had Race Concepts d&s until one front cracked. Rears are still Race Concepts, Fronts are slotted Frozen Rotors. I had Metal Masters all around for my first 2 track days, and Axxis Ultimates front with Metal Masters rear ever since. Have had Race Concepts SS lines from the beginning. Used ATE SuperBlue first (old boiling brake fluid), now Wilwood 570 (just as good and cheaper - $5.75 for 12ozs)

Braking performance is also related to suspension (not about fade, about maximum tire grip) Both Ben and I are running pretty stiff springs for our car weight. Maybe that helps us with overall braking performance. That might well explain Cazzer's observations about needing better brakes. An OEM sprung SVX is a real floater. Also, I'm running 245-40/17 BFG KDW-2's, good grip, but not slicks or R-compound. Maybe if I was running slicks, I would have a lot more problem with fade.

So, why is my perceived braking experience so much different from some others? Are you running OEM or other plain rotors? Fluid, pads, lines??? What tires are the faders running, R-compound, slicks??? Also, exactly what kind of sessions result in fade? AutoX? HPDE? Time Trials? Wheel to wheel 30 minute sprints?

[svxstarship]

I agree with everything you said. He is some info on the Dunville track where Cazzer tested the SVX. I copied it from a post on the Grassroots motorsport site...
I've been to Dunnville 7 times over the last two summers for Solo 1 and lapping days. Here are my observations:

- the track is very tight and has very rough run-off areas. you do not want to go off at this track. It has three fairly long straights that all end with very tight/slow corners, so it's murder on brakes. If you don't have race pads and good quality brake fluid, you will suffer brake fad in 2-3 laps if not less.

- the facility still needs a lot of work. the paddock area is very rough, with 60 year old pavement and gravel, so it's hard on race tires, especially slicks.

- the track is technically challenging, but it only has one medium/high speed corner. all the rest are slow/tight corners, so it almost feels like a big autocross rather than a race track.

- the track has very little "flow", because of all the straights ending in super tight corners. It's very much a "start and stop" kind of circuit, which suits lighter cars with good brakes very well (my car included), but lots of torque to get out of the tight corners works well too (some fast laps have been put down by Z06's and Mustangs here).

Of all the tracks I've competed on in Ontario (Shannonville, Mosport GP and DDT, Cayuga/TMP), Dunnville is my least favorite. I'm looking forward to Calabogie opening up near Ottawa next summer, which will be a fantastic circuit along the lines of Mosport GP or Tremblant.
_________________
Dave Pratte

I'm looking forward to some lapping days next season at Mosport and Calabogie with the SVX. Allthough they were expensive, I think if you were to try out my Movit kit on your svx for a track session you would like them. I think my problems were the result of running stock non slotted rotors. The slotted rotors with the right pads like you are running probably would have eliminated my warping issues.

[svxstarship]

I meant to say slotted, and or, drilled rotors.:)

[ItsPeteReally]

By now you have probably guessed that I have a bee in my bonnet about measurement. It seems to me that you probably aren't doing much wrong, apart from trying to use the SVX as a race car ;)

But if you must race an SVX, then more power to your elbow sir.

It seems to me that if you want to gain the 'racer's edge' that you shouldn't blindly copy what all the other idiots are doing, but think for yourself.

Just looking round the web for a measurement tool I came across this item http://www.tiptemp.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=18638&CategoryID=4413 something that allows you to see just how hot your brakes are getting. This information may allow you to select the most appropriate pad for any particular circuit. It may also allow you to see if any disc pattern does run significantly cooler than another.

Agressive stops from high speed are the real problem, they dump horrendous amounts of heat into the discs, and the only mechanism that is going to remove that heat is air, which has a pathetically low thermal capacity. The end result is that vast amounts of air are required to disperse it before the next stop, lower speed braking puts much less energy into the system, it's all about v-squared.

I remain to be convinced that any disc rotor design, by itself, significantly improves the cooling airflow, perhaps they help with outgassing from the pads, I dunno: is this an issue at all?

Brake ducts, or water cooling are a different issue. Whether or not the standard SVX wheels improve brake cooling or not - who knows? They say it does, do any aftermarket wheels claim anything similar?

[Earthworm]

Whether or not the standard SVX wheels improve brake cooling or not - who knows? They say it does, do any aftermarket wheels claim anything similar?Now UberRoo insists on running his wheels on the opposite sides...perhaps that's why he's having issues with his brakes?

[svxstarship]

DBA mentions using a temp paint kit for analysis.
http://www.dba.com.au/dba_catalogue_2004/HTML/pdf/Out/Major_Considerations_Track.pdf

They also claim their tigerpaw design rotor vanes run cooler. Not to admit guilt, but I think your remark about agressive stops from high speed being a major cause is correct. For cars with drilled rotors that aid in water dispersment in the rain the removal of the brake shields is probably benificial to cooling. For non drilled rotors this is not a good idea as their can be a delay when first applying the brakes in the rain!
Does your uk car have vented rear disks? When ordering rear disks here in Canada I have twice been given "Eurorotor" brand vented rear disks. They fit of course except for the caliper carrier not being wide enough, quality looks good too. Of course I never notice this until I am halfway through the brake job. I wonder if I can find some used rear UK calipers on line? Just for the record I use fresh Valvoline Synthetic fluid.

[UberRoo]

Now UberRoo insists on running his wheels on the opposite sides...perhaps that's why he's having issues with his brakes?
Haha! Interesting theory.

It would probably be more useful if we quantified the actual performance of our brakes. As I recall, if I do consecutive 0 - 100 - 0 runs, the first two are fine, but number three brings on a bit of fade for the last twenty MPH, and number four starts to fade around fifty. That more than doubles my stopping distance. (It may be run four and five that I start to experience fade. I don't remember.) Overall, they're damn good brakes. I'm certainly impressed with them, but I wouldn't trust them with a more powerful motor.

I think I must be punishing my brakes with more demanding conditions. After twenty minutes of hundred-plus straights and late braking for corners at half the speed, the occasional dead stop (or near stop) from a buck-twenty is just too much. The brakes will effectively knock fifty MPH off the end of the dial, but that last fifty is a hard sell.

If I just throttle off early and coast into the next corner, I rarely have to brake at all, but I lose ten or twenty from my top speeds. After the first five minutes, I back off because I know I won't be able to stop if I need to. If being able to come to a complete stop in an emergency wasn't a concern, I probably wouldn't be complaining. In situations where my top speeds are under ninety, fade is rarely an issue.

My fluid is fresh and doesn't boil, and I'm using metallic pads, which have a pretty high heat tolerance. Perhaps I can find nicer pads, but of course every manufacturer claims their product is the best. I haven't seen any evidence that the Axxis pads are any better than brand-X, but I acknowledge their popularity could be indicative of their performance, and not just their aggressive marketing. My current pads are definitely superior to the original equipment pads. I may look a little harder at my pad options when I finally grind this set down.

Carbon disks and pads with a brake multiplier would be a nice, albeit expensive, solution.

I can dream...

[Suby Fan]

why hasnt any one pointed out dayle's big brake kit?? i warp my rotors constantly! and as far as the SVX goes im not impressed with its braking ability i would definatly say its the car's weak point... and Curly... your going to need to choose between a modded out SVX that you can show off or stock SVX that you can race.... because one mod on a svx... even a aftermarket cone style filter puts you in a open class where you will most definatly get PWNED by cars that are really done up... i think... right? :confused:

[Suby Fan]

and benebob are you mocking me w/ your signature?

[newsvx]

I haven't been on this thread for a while, and I find the snide remarks a bit disconcerting (Ben). I believe this site has always been for the exchange of ideas - and yes, we all will not always agree. So let's treat each other with a bit of respect, even if we feel the other person doesn't fully understand the issue / problem / or whatever. Name calling always ends badly!

As for brakes on the SVX, yes they could be better. That said, I have never had a great deal of problems with them, to include warped rotors. What does "better" mean? Shorter stopping distance and lack of fading under hard use. They are NOT as good as say a Porsche 911 - neither did it cost as much. They won't be as good as a BMW either. There are SO many factors involved in a good braking system that is is difficult to get into specifics. Most cars don't weigh as much as the SVX (4,450 lbs, GVW - that's "gross vehicle weight", not dry weight) - I know, that's a general statement, but it must be considered when some have been talking about SVX race cars which are stripped of weight.
Seems to me there are a few things that need to be considered in talking about brakes, in general: 1) what kind of driving will you be doing? Autocross requires a different pad, as an example, than putting a car on a track (notice the different pads that a racing manufacturer sells). 2) having fresh, "high temp" brake fluid is a must. Part of our tech inspections for the track includes insuring the car has had the brake fluid changed within the past six months - seven months won't do! In addition to being sure there is no water (that "boils" easily) in the system, clean fluid, changed regularly, insures a clean system that works better. All cars should change the brake fluid every year!! At least! BTW, at a track event, as pads wear, the fluid goes "down". Pay attention to that! 3) Decent rotors are essential. Again, drilled and / or slotted rotors are best for the track ( I think the German manufacturers prefer the drilled only, if one takes the AMG's as an example). OEM (non-warped, of course) are fine for autocross, generally speaking. Proper break-in of a new set of pads / rotors will go a LONG way in ensuring they work their best, and don't warp. 4) Pads. See above re pads and different uses. 5) TIRES. Tires will make a tremendous difference in braking, but have nothing to do with fade. Both on the track and autocross, I run R compound tires. One is fooling himself if he runs street tires and expects to perform well. R compound tires will make seconds difference in your times where a tenth of a second is "forever".
I have rambled a bit, and I sorry for that. Just allow me to say what I run for brakes on my '97, bone stock SVX: For autocross, I run Axxis semi-metalic pads, front and rear with OEM rotors (if I went the slotted or drilled rotors, I am modified). I do NOT race my SVX on the track - I ain't that good. And if I were that good and serious about racing, I'd have a better (read lighter and more HP) car to run. Old guys don't have the reflexes of you young guys. But I do like to get the SVX out on a track such as Summit Point or Virginia International Raceways (VIR) to enjoy what the car will do. Personally, I think a stock SVX is very respectable in the performance arena, but a Porsche it ain't!! And as with 90% of the folks on this thread, I am not a racecar driver, and as a result, I run the car perhaps seven tenths of its capability. I don't want to wreck my car since I can't afford another one. And you can't (or shouldn't) run the car even seven tenths on the road.
So ..... bottom line for the SVX (or any car used in high performance driving (track or street)), be sure you have the best brakes (and suspension too) parts / system you can afford to put on the car. Keep it sericeable.NEVER show up at a driving event with brakes that have not been thoughly checked out.
Sorry to get on my soapbox ......
Harry

[ItsPeteReally]

Does your uk car have vented rear disks? When ordering rear disks here in Canada I have twice been given "Eurorotor" brand vented rear disks. They fit of course except for the caliper carrier not being wide enough, quality looks good too. Of course I never notice this until I am halfway through the brake job. I wonder if I can find some used rear UK calipers on line?
Yes, the UK cars have vented rear disks. As to finding used calipers for sale, all I can suggest is 'camping' on e-bay, and waiting, and waiting. The SVX is a rare car over here: there were only about 280 ever sold and probably less than half that number have survived. I think that I'd be a little wary of used calipers, and I'd certainly refurbish the seals etc. before using them.

[shotgunslade]

Harry:

Well said. My sentiments exactly. I think I probably drive the car a little more than 7/10 on my trackdays, but I'm certainly not good enough to drive it 10/10's. Since I'm not usually competing, I don't care that my car has a good amount of mods. I think they make the car more enjoyable. The one group I run with that does Time Trials (CART) has classified me as F Street Prepared, which doesn't seem to be a bad place to be. For NASA time trials, my car would be Class E, along with stock Integra Type R's, Nissan 300ZX- NA, Mustang V-6's, Porsche 944, Subaru WRX, e30 M-3's, etc. I have driven with some of these cars on track days, and can say I'm probably in the right place. Will try to do some NASA time trials next season. All said, the SVX is a good, predictable and fun car on the track. Not the fastest car in the world, but it's fun surprising people from time to time (WRX's and E30 M-3's especially)

Looking forward to our Summit Point SVX Track Day next season.

Uberoo:

Consecutive 0-100-0's is way harsh, don't you think?

ItsPeteReally:

I'm not racing an SVX. I'm just driving fast in a controlled environment with an occasional timed performance check.

[newsvx]

Harry:

The one group I run with that does Time Trials (CART) has classified me as F Street Prepared, which doesn't seem to be a bad place to be. For NASA time trials, my car would be Class E, along with stock Integra Type R's, Nissan 300ZX- NA, Mustang V-6's, Porsche 944, Subaru WRX, e30 M-3's, etc. I have driven with some of these cars on track days, and can say I'm probably in the right place. Will try to do some NASA time trials next season. All said, the SVX is a good, predictable and fun car on the track. Not the fastest car in the world, but it's fun surprising people from time to time (WRX's and E30 M-3's especially)



Slade,
The SCCA has the SVX in G STOCK. What is the reasoning of placing you in F STOCK Prepared?
Harry

[benebob]

and benebob are you mocking me w/ your signature?

Huh?:confused: :confused:

[benebob]

I haven't been on this thread for a while, and I find the snide remarks a bit disconcerting (Ben).
Harry


Sorry Harry but I value my time. If people can't listen to others who have plenty of knowledge on the subject (when they are the ones experiencing a problem) then I feel its right to tell them.

Do you go to the doctor and diagnosis your problem?

Point is as plenty have proved that the SVX brakes are fine for moderate track use. Doing 0-100-0 will kill any braking system and in reality isn't the wisest thing to do in a non-controlled enviroment. Go put an extra 750lbs in a vette and do that you'll be in the same boat. For street cars there really isn't a safe alternative as racing pads absolutely suck of street driving. It'd be like driving with your Toyos in a snowstorm... completely irresponsible!!!

Harry, that sounds about right on classifications. Dave and I kinda screwed up the NOC with wanting to be classed so that's what we got. Once a car is classed in a prepared class its much easier to then find the fit elsewhere based on that.

[mohrds]

So, while everyone is stuck on racing techniques, I'm more interested in daily driving. The issue I have to deal with is commuter traffic. You have to stay on the tail of the car in front of you so no one will wedge in front of you while staying far enough back as to be able to out stop the car ahead.

Doing multiple 50MPH to standstill for minutes at a time leaves deposits on the rotors and is giving the "Warped rotor" feel after only a few months. I have always used Subaru pads and rotors because they are relatively cheap and I don't have to deal with parts people behind the counter. I try to have the new rotors turned before installation as the are never truly "true" out of the box. I do a proper bedding by slowing to a coast several times, raise speed, repeat, etc. No engaged brakes on a stationary warm disc during the process, yet the harsh commuter traffic is awful on the brakes.

What would anyone suggest as far as pads that leave the least deposits?

Doug

[shotgunslade]

Hary:

They put me in F/SP because of my mods, specifically the 5MT and the coilovers. Don't know if they picked up on the camshafts. NASA puts the SVX in Class F. My mods bounce me up one class.

[benebob]

So, while everyone is stuck on racing techniques, I'm more interested in daily driving. The issue I have to deal with is commuter traffic. You have to stay on the tail of the car in front of you so no one will wedge in front of you while staying far enough back as to be able to out stop the car ahead.

Doing multiple 50MPH to standstill for minutes at a time leaves deposits on the rotors and is giving the "Warped rotor" feel after only a few months. I have always used Subaru pads and rotors because they are relatively cheap and I don't have to deal with parts people behind the counter. I try to have the new rotors turned before installation as the are never truly "true" out of the box. I do a proper bedding by slowing to a coast several times, raise speed, repeat, etc. No engaged brakes on a stationary warm disc during the process, yet the harsh commuter traffic is awful on the brakes.

What would anyone suggest as far as pads that leave the least deposits?

Doug

Ceramics will leave the least and be the best on the rotors (barring some of the high cost alternatives that aren't good for street usually to begin with). Organics will leave a ton but are also good on the rotors. Semi-metallics are in between as for dust but are not so nice on the rotors.

Where do you get your rotors tured Doug? Might want to take 'em to an actual machine shop and ask if they can tell you how much the are off on each. A lot of places will simply take a rotor grind it down to flat rather than even check to see if its bad. It wouldn't suprise me if it has more to do with dirty calipers, pins and sticking pads then the rotors as it happens quite often esp. with OEM style dust makers.;)

[mohrds]

Where do you get your rotors tured Doug? Might want to take 'em to an actual machine shop and ask if they can tell you how much the are off on each. A lot of places will simply take a rotor grind it down to flat rather than even check to see if its bad. It wouldn't suprise me if it has more to do with dirty calipers, pins and sticking pads then the rotors as it happens quite often esp. with OEM style dust makers.;)

Good points, I should have given more detail. The place I take them to is a manufacturer that has its own machine shop that my friend is the foreman at. (Run on sentence :D ) They machine them about 75% of the time.

As for the calipers, I do check the slides because of our wonderful Wisconsin winters require them to be de-sludged and regreased pretty regularly.

I'll try the ceramic pads on the front in spring.

Thanks for the advice.

[UberRoo]

Consecutive 0-100-0's is way harsh, don't you think?
Oh, yes, absolutely. From what I've read regarding brake break-in procedures, for metallic pads on sports cars, four 0-100-0 runs were advised. (0-75-0 for semi-metallics, or non-sports cars.) The thing is, a half-dozen consecutive 100-60-100 corners amounts to roughly the same thing. That seems to be about the maximum duty cycle my brakes can tolerate. If I don't late-brake, there's no problem with fade, but then I'm much slower if I'm not giving the ABS something to do.

I was just thinking that it'd probably be a safe wager to bet that the majority of people have absolutely no idea what the performance limits of their vehicles are. My old Honda was not able to perform even one hard stop from a hundred. I'm sure rear drums, non-vented rotors, and organic pads had something to do with it though.

[Suby Fan]

Huh?:confused: :confused:
never mind you changed it

[NeedForSpeed]

Great thread. To complete it, how about a couple posts on how/where to lub and with what? What is used to prevent shim squeek and how is it applied?

[newsvx]

Hary:

They put me in F/SP because of my mods, specifically the 5MT and the coilovers. Don't know if they picked up on the camshafts. NASA puts the SVX in Class F. My mods bounce me up one class.

Thanks, didn't know that!

Harry

[benebob]

never mind you changed it


Still confused as to why you think I'm making fun of you? Race wheels simply aren't bling wheels. Function over form! They definately aren't pretty!

[curly2k3]

mine are ;)

[benebob]

mine are ;)


Are what 10 inches wide?:D

[curly2k3]

LMAO, i wish the STI BBS's were, but gold is straight up blingn' yoez! :D

[benebob]

LMAO, i wish the STI BBS's were, but gold is straight up blingn' yoez! :D


Ah but they're 17 inches or bigger right. Try finding a racing slick in that size, then try finding the "right" slick in that size, finally, find that right slick for under $350 a piece. 16s are hard enough to get slicks for.