ECUtune Stage 2v6 ethanol, e85, flex fuel, turbo, supercharger, force induction

[longassname]

Ok boys and girls, we've got some Stage 3 cars on the road and being put on the road and now I can turn my attention back to what I do: Engine management software.

I know some of you were wondering what "secret" Chris refered to in the Stage 3 thread that I am working on and I see that the topic of E85 has come up in one of Phil's turbo threads. I'm guessing because he knows the "secret" since he lives in a corn state and is one of our guinea pigs. The "secret" is we are replacing the 2nd version of software on our memory adaptors (the 87 octane code, nitrous code, etc) with software for e85. The first version which will be available for purchase is Stage 2v6. We will be testing it this week before shipping but believe it is done.

Both the premium unlead software in the default memory location of 2v6 and the e85 software in the 2nd memory location of 2v6 incorporate a couple of other substantial improvements. In the stage 2v6 software a lot of ignition timing has been moved from the revision table into the primary table. This changes around the way things work. Instead of the ecu having to learn in additional advance now it runs it to begin with and if need be can take it out according to the knock sensors. With this change we see about 5 degrees more ignition advance being utilized very happily through out a wide range of driving conditions on the street. This provides a real performance improvement in all types of driving conditions.

There are two areas of the table which are not normally seen in a stock svx but are now important for a number of mod'ed svx's out there. The above mentioned change to the timing table dramatically changed the shape of the timing table in those areas for HUGE improvements for these modded cars. The two areas are for 1) of course, svx"ii with forced induction 2)svx'ii with manual transmissions.

There is now an appropriate amount of timing at low rpms to maintian engine operation while shifting a manual transmission. The prior lack is a likely culprit for stalling issues many svx'ii with manual transmission conversions have encountered. There is now also an appropriate amount of ignition timing for those running higher loads than factory. Performance with forced induction etc are hugely improved.

[shotgunslade]

Michael:

That sounds really good. Can't wait to make the upgrade. You have created any army of addicts out there who faithfully line up for your latest enhancement. count me as one. I guess this will be the fourth one of your chips I have had in my car.

[gest24]

Sounds like a good thing to try out and see some numbers on the Dyno over 2V5. How do you do the "upgrade" in software for current customers?

[Bobb]

Hi LAN, Its my understanding that if a vehicle is not piumbed to take E85 in the fuel system that E85 will "eat" the hoses, gaskets, etc. And because of the reduced BTU's in E85 you will get about 30% less fuel mileage. Also I don't know what effect E85 will have, long term, on our plastic gas tanks. Take card, BOBB

[longassname]

It's my understanding that after the fuel shortages in the late 70's when they did mix ethanol into the gasoline despite vehicles having some materials with incompatiblities in them that in the 80's US regulations were modified requiring auto manufacturers to make all vehicles for US markets ethanol compatible. It's probably an excellent idea to change those antique hoses anyway. Both Dayco and Gates fuel injector hose are multi fuel compatible--they have been for over a year.

On the note of probable fuel efficiency with E85 in a propperly tuned SVX: It does require about 30% more E85 by volume to attain the propper afr; however, that does not mean that your fuel efficiency will go down 30%. I think it's interesting and worth pointing out that with the stage 1v4 software we increased the fuel injected by 12% and didn't see any decrease in fuel economy because the resultant power improvement gave us something back for our 12%. It's not exactly the same situation with the E85 because 30% is a lot more than 12% and because that 30% is consistent even under light loads; however, we can expect the significant performance improvements we will see with E85 to lessen the impact on mileage very nicely.

Really what it comes down to in my mind is that the SVX engine is barely able to operate with US premium unleaded and would really prefer a higher octane fuel. E85 is 105 octane and is basically a better fuel for the SVX in every way. In fact the higher mass of E85 injected benifits performance by increasing cooling. The increased mass caries the heat from the combustion chamber out the exhaust.

Besides being superior for a stock svx engine the burning characteristics and increased mass of the E85 fuel charge should prove an amazing improvement for forced induction which has even higher dynamic compression.




Hi LAN, Its my understanding that if a vehicle is not piumbed to take E85 in the fuel system that E85 will "eat" the hoses, gaskets, etc. And because of the reduced BTU's in E85 you will get about 30% less fuel mileage. Also I don't know what effect E85 will have, long term, on our plastic gas tanks. Take card, BOBB

[longassname]

Having given my opinion on E85 and the SVX I want to make clear that is just my opinion. The stage 2v6 software should not be considered an e85 conversion kit. It is as all of our products are for off road use only and it is the purchaser's responsibility to determine the applicability and combatibility of it for their application.

[SVXRide]

Micheal,
Great news! Have you been following the "Cam Lobes" thread? Do you see any issues with running the 2V6 chip with the cams we're looking at for NA applications? Gest24's dyno runs with the stage 1 intake cams, 2v5 chip and z32 MAF looked pretty good, other than being a little lean (which I'd attibute to the use of the stock fpr). Other than the change in the timing table, are there any AFR-related changes?.
-Bill (looking forward to 2v6'dom!)

[mikecg]

I thought I had read somewhere that switching a car to E85 required more than just reprograming the ECU. I thought it rquired a complete change of a majority of the fuel system components. It was my understanding that E85 was corrosive and would slowly damage a standard tank, fuel lines, injectors, ect. and damage rubber seals.

[drivemusicnow]

I'm pretty sure that LAN just answered all of your questions but I'll give a go as well.

For the most part, any car produced after 1985-ish should have a fuel system capable of handling E85... In some states for almost 30 years "E10" has been used, which is just 10% ethanol, 90% "gas"... E85 is obviously 85% ethanol... Alcohol is known to be corrosive towards some rubber, however I am fairly sure that the difference in part life would be slight at best.

Obviously niether LAN or I can guarantee that it won't cause some random gasket to fail, however as this "conversion" is becoming common in the automotive world, i think it is safe to say that you would be fine using the stock system with E85...



on another note, yes, fuel mileage does decrease by 30%, but in some areas E85 is 20-50% cheaper than gasoline. Typically most people find that it equals out in the end, neither gaining nor losing miles per dollar.

[Beav]

Uh, y'all are absolutely wrong regarding E85. Vehicles that are rated to use it have vast differences. Ethanol is highly corrosive and more than a few rubber hoses are required. The metallurgy of the entire engine is different.

The 'gasohol' of the '70s and '80s was never supposed to exceed 3-7%, yet many distributors kept adding more until they began receiving complaints. Then they backed it down a point or two but even that was still enough to cause problems. Usually they ended up around 9-11%. That was enough to eat the zinc from carburetors, turning them into junk. Carbs were made from base metal with zinc which filled the pores. Ethanol/methanol attacked the zinc and made the carbs porous.

Now imagine what 85% ethanol is going to do to pistons, camshafts, etc. Hoses will be the least of your problems.

[Speedklix]

Aluminumuminimum.... I've seen cans eaten through.

But it sounds like a great meathod of making the mt swap more complete.

[Speedklix]

to clarify....
Steel components of our engine may be fine... but it will eat right through all our aluminum and it gets worse when you heat it up. Beav is dead on, zinc is a great example... ethanol eats it just like aluminum.

[longassname]

Isn't ethanol only corrosive when contanimated with water?

Weren't natural rubbers, cork, and exposed aluminum eliminated from engine components manufactured after 1988?

It seems to me like everything is geared up for ethanol now. It's getting pretty hard to find new parts that aren't ehtanol compatible. I'm rebuilding an 85 chrysler 318 which originally had all kinds of non ethanol compatible parts but every cork gasket for it now has been replaced with nitrile coated fiber, paper gaskets replaced with nitrile gaskets, etc etc. I'm willing to bet the new eldebrock carb I'm puttin on it is compatible too.

I haven't seen them yet but I believe they are also making engine oils with additives that combat formic acid in the event that you do get water contaminated e85.

[shotgunslade]

Michael:

So, what will the damage be for us addicts of your continuing stream of wonderful chips that so enhance our motorsport experience? Guess I'll have to steal another color TV to support my habit.

[Beav]

I was in a rush this morning and may have come across terse, but the facts remain.

The 'rubber' parts are the least of your worries.

Find a hydrocarbon that isn't hygroscopic. Ever hear of scotch and water? Bourbon and branch water? Gas Dry? (alcohol that absorbs moisture from fuel?)

Steel components that aren't subject to wear will probably be o.k. but parts that endure wear - camshafts, wrist pins, blah, blah, blah will catch hell.

Every manufacturer that has vehicles designed for E85 specifically states so. I don't know of, and doubt the existence of, any OEMs that don't specifically state that E85 should not be used in any of their vehicles not designed specifically for its use. It is a selling point. I know for certain that Fords so designed have small square emblems with a green tree branch that winds off into the horizon, like a road, that denote their ethanol capable cars and trucks. I also know they spent several years in testing in south america before they were brought to market here, a number of years ago. I also know there was a heckuva lot more involved in their development than changing a few hoses... not to mention the cars' own ability to figure out what fuel it is operating on.

[longassname]

Beav,

I have the upmost respect for your mechanical abilities and long, long experiece as a mechanic. Not to detract from them at all, I think there in may lie your vehement initial reaction to the idea of putting e85 into an svx. It's very normal for those who are most versed in one way of doing things to be the most difficult to sway into something new.

It is true that when water tainted ethanol is combusted it forms formic acid which causes wear to engine parts. It is also true that over time humidity will work it's way into fuel. These are not the only drawbacks of E85 as compared to gasoline either. Ethanol isn't as lubricating as gasoline either and it is more conductive. That does not mean that every vehicle not specifically designed as a flex fuel vehicle will instantly disintegrate if e85 touches it.

The reality is somewhere in the middle. E85 is better than unleaded gasoline in some ways and has drawbacks in other ways. It certainly offers an opportunity for increased performance and there are those in the SVX community who want to explore that opportunity. There are also those who would rather use E85 because it's a domestic product and there are those who will want to use E85 if it turns out to give more miles per $. To all of these people for all of those reasons it's time to overcome the drawbacks in order to reap the benefits.

Exactly for that reason businesses are producing the solutions to overcome the drawbacks. Hoses and gaskets are now designed for use with ethanol. Additives and motor oils are being produced to nuetralize formic acid which may be produced from the combustion of ethanol with water. We are producing engine management for the SVX.

As I said earlier we are not producing an E85 conversion kit. All I am giving you is the engine management. With the many companies now engaged in providing products geared to overcome the drawbacks of using E85 I think you may find solutions not so hard to find.

[dynomatt]

This is interesting. You guys have a fuel that's 85% Ethanol? How does it go?

We've just gone to a Shell product that has about 10% Ethanol and has 100 octane. I ran that in my rally car and it was really good...good power, and no pinging.

Reading the www.e85fuel.com there's only a few engines that run it.

[longassname]

E85 is an 85% ethanol 15% gasoline blend that is being sold in the US. Right now it is readily available in the corn growing states here in the US and hard to find everywhere else. There are however a couple of huge ethanol plants coming online this year and E85 will be increasingly available everywhere in the US. It's one of our country's largest attempts to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. With nationalistic, environemental, and big oil interests all in the mix it's a hot botton topic.



This is interesting. You guys have a fuel that's 85% Ethanol? How does it go?

We've just gone to a Shell product that has about 10% Ethanol and has 100 octane. I ran that in my rally car and it was really good...good power, and no pinging.

Reading the www.e85fuel.com there's only a few engines that run it.

[TomsSVX]

Jersey has been using Ethanol for years. Not in an 85% concentration that you speak of but the direct opposite, a 15% ethanol with 85% gasoline. Now this is not all stations in Jersey but many to say the least. With that said, I have been running all of my SVXi on Jersey pump gas since day one with no fuel related issues involving the use of Ethanol... SO with a higher concentration it will be more volitile but at the same time, I do not forsee it doing any real damage to your fuel systems. A suggestion that should be heard is that before you start just using Ethanol, throughly clean your fuel system and have your inkectors clean professionally, this will eliminate the possibility that any elements left in your system that "could" react with the E85 will more or less be gone and not a risk. Mike knows what he is doing and is not just guessing, give a listen before you are so quick to disagree. Like so many have said and will continue to say, this is my opinion and only an opinion

Tom

[NikFu S.]

I'll definitely be picking this up in the not too distant future.

[longassname]

I just followed the link someone posted in Phil's turbo thread about a wrx guy on nasioc who has been running an increasingly high mixture of e85 with gasoline in his wrx. Apparantly he has been running straight e85 for a while now with no ill effects. Without even having propper engine management ( he cleverly tricked his ecu into delivering the propper amount of fuel by putting in fuel injectors with a 25% higher flow rate) he's tearing it up and says that thanks to the performance improvements he only sees an 8% drop in mileage.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

[Pure_Insanity8]

Tom, you have 15% Ethanol mixes? As far as I knew there was only the standard 10% mix and E85 for ethanol.:confused: One of my professors (as far as I know) is one of the leading ethanol backers in the U.S. and has had to cancel class in order to speak before the house/senate in D.C. to push U.S. use of ethanol. My school is one of the main testing facilities for ethanol use (the Prius project was apparently a bit difficlt... some rubber bits did give way). He is always really busy but I am going to try to pose some of these issues to him when I can to see what the real deal is. We had to study this stuff and I am positive that he has real reliable answers to most of these questions. I hope I can get a minute of his time.

[shotgunslade]

Enough with the E85. Most of us don't have access to it, and if we did, we each would likely have our individual maintenance issues that would come to the fore because of switching to it. After all, we all have old cars, and each has its own weaknesses, some of which might unpredictably be impacted by a strict diet of E85. If we want to go on this diet, we would likely be better off with a car that has been originally designed as a dual fuel machine. This is certainly an intellectually enthralling discussion, but the meat of the matter is better performance, an end to 5MT stalling, etc. When and how much is my major interest.

Anyway, the major problem right now with ethanol is that it competes with foodstuffs for agricultural land, fertilizer, water, farm labor, equipment, handling facilities, etc, all of which will limit the amount that can be produced for reasonable cost. I think that widespread ethanol use will be limited until the cellulosic conversion process has been further developed. This will enable ethanol production from agricultural waste, and even dead leaves, and will open up huge resources for ethanol production. I have no idea why this isn't on the front burner of all energy activitists and politicals. It is the only conceivable cure for our annual transfusions of foreign oil.

But, back to the topic, when can we get the chip and how much?

[TomsSVX]

Tom, you have 15% Ethanol mixes? As far as I knew there was only the standard 10% mix and E85 for ethanol.:confused: One of my professors (as far as I know) is one of the leading ethanol backers in the U.S. and has had to cancel class in order to speak before the house/senate in D.C. to push U.S. use of ethanol. My school is one of the main testing facilities for ethanol use (the Prius project was apparently a bit difficlt... some rubber bits did give way). He is always really busy but I am going to try to pose some of these issues to him when I can to see what the real deal is. We had to study this stuff and I am positive that he has real reliable answers to most of these questions. I hope I can get a minute of his time.

Most stations are a 10% mixture yes, but I am fairly confident that some have 15% or I am slowly losing my ability to count numbers

Tom

[Beav]

I don't really care what people do to their cars but I do think they should be properly informed before making decisions. I know there is a number of people out there that claim the only reason they stop at a gas station is to let gas out of their car.

The most basic, non-technical logic would be that we all know the economies of mass producing automobiles, save a dime on a million cars, etc. Why would all of the OEMs research and build specific cars to use a specific fuel if it wasn't in their financial best interests?

That being said I'll leave it up to the individuals to make their own decisions. I was just tossing out some info.

[svxistentialist]

Guaranteed unbreakable?
Because our cars were sold in an era when E85 was not available, at least not outside Brazil, then for sure any manufacturer who is asked about compatibility issues will simply say using high ethanol fuels will invalidate any warranty and is not advised.

They will say this because it's what they do best, keep well clear of liability. Some of you guys probably remember Nader, was it? Rupturing fuel tanks? Yeh?

Certified insane?
Just the same, there is validity in what Beav says. If the stuff eats metals, best to determine what metals are liable for corrosion, and ensure there is little or none oof those metals in the system before using any % of E85.

From what I have looked up, zinc is a no-no. I don't believe there is a zinc coating in our fuel tanks, but it would be nice to get this confirmed. Likewise the fuel pump will have been designed with the possibility of ethanol in the designer's brief, so I expect the pump won't fail. In any case it would be wise to replace with a 255 Walbro anyway, to be sure to be sure, as we say in Ireland.

Our fuel lines and filter look to me to be stainless steel, therefore, safe. You could change all the rubbers, to be sure to be sure, but I'm betting they are impervious to ethanol abuse.

This brings us to the engine, and, to be honest, I just don't believe the stuff can have a significant erosion effect on aluminium. I say this because this fuel or percentage variants of it are in use in Brazil for the past 20 to 30 years. Nobody is going to convince me that the world's car manufacturers have been putting all-steel engines into the cars in Brazil because of ethanol intolerance. It does not add up.

Back to Beav's point again about wear parts, pins etc, I would have to concede that formic acid formation would pose an accelerated wear situation in this case. However, I do suspect that this has been compensated for in Brazil by using the specialized oils to combat it. No reason we could not use these additives also.

The bottom line is you will have to assume these risks [and compensate for them!!] if you are going to use more ethanol and change your ECU to handle it.

As I see it the environmental benefits and the extra power benefits outweigh these possibilities of wear and damage to the engine.

Joe:)

[TomsSVX]

That has been the point all along. The benefits of using this for SOME outweigh the downsides of using this product. If rebuilding my engine once every 5 years is now a requirement due to the exrtra wear and tear on my engine... So be it. I will do this to compensate as I do not expect ANY of the engines in my Silver last longer than 20k anyway due to the extra force and heat it is making now withouth the use of E85. Really it comes down to the question of whether or not this is for you. I agree that the more information known about this product and it's compatability with our car's OE components should be known but to write it off as an impossibility or a severe danger to our vehicles makes no sense as anything can be done to allow this new fuel to work with our cars.

Tom

[Earthworm]

In Manitoba we only have one company selling Ethanol blended gas and only at 10%. I've been filling up with them any chance I get because of the discounts I get. (94 octane for the price of 87 and $$ towards my CAA membership)

I have no issues with my car as a result of using their fuel. I wouldn't be filling with E85 yet if it were available here.

[shotgunslade]

Now that we have all explored the ins and outs of ethanol at various concentrations, could we get back to the initial thrust of the thread. The Chip. What, when and how much?

[NeedForSpeed]

What about our injectors?

Injectors need to pump 30% more fuel to run E85? Stage III has bigger injectors to meet fuel demands, correct?

[gest24]

Now that we have all explored the ins and outs of ethanol at various concentrations, could we get back to the initial thrust of the thread. The Chip. What, when and how much?

+1 for getting the thread back on track... more info about the chip, less about E85.

[TomsSVX]

yes the stage 3 has larger injectors... Is LAN going to write software to use them outside of stage 3... No

Tom

[SVXRide]

yes the stage 3 has larger injectors... Is LAN going to write software to use them outside of stage 3... No

Tom


:D :D :D :D :cool:
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

trust me... the stock injectors will flow enough... If they don't. Run on gasoline thats all:D I think I am done posting for the evening to all a good night:rolleyes:

Tom

[shotgunslade]

I would like to hijack this thread back from the hijackers to return to the original thrust. Thank you. If we don't return to talking about the chip, I'm going to explode this vest full of dynamite that I'm wearing.

[NikFu S.]

I'm going to explode this vest full of dynamite that I'm wearing.
I hope you have a permit for that.

[longassname]

to answer your previous questions if i remember them correctly.

Price:
Stage 2v6 is the same price Stage 2v5 was. Of course since there are now owners of previous versions of the stage 2 software with z32 maf meters I added a much cheaper upgrade option for those of you who fit into that category. For previous stage 2 owners the upgrade is $129. Before anyone who doesn't fit into that category tries being slick let me say when I say stage 2 owners I actually mean purchasers. To get the $129 price you have to be listed in our records as a stage 2 purchaser.

How do you get it:
order from our website. Wait a few days though. We aren't shipping it till our prototype tester verifies the e85 code is working correctly. I'll post in here when he does.


I would like to hijack this thread back from the hijackers to return to the original thrust. Thank you. If we don't return to talking about the chip, I'm going to explode this vest full of dynamite that I'm wearing.

[gest24]

to answer your previous questions if i remember them correctly.

Price:
Stage 2v6 is the same price Stage 2v5 was. Of course since there are now owners of previous versions of the stage 2 software with z32 maf meters I added a much cheaper upgrade option for those of you who fit into that category. For previous stage 2 owners the upgrade is $129. Before anyone who doesn't fit into that category tries being slick let me say when I say stage 2 owners I actually mean purchasers. To get the $129 price you have to be listed in our records as a stage 2 purchaser.

How do you get it:
order from our website. Wait a few days though. We aren't shipping it till our prototype tester verifies the e85 code is working correctly. I'll post in here when he does.

Yay! I'm more than likely going to get it. Esp. if it will fix the 6mt stall issue.

[benebob]

Uh, y'all are absolutely wrong regarding E85. Vehicles that are rated to use it have vast differences. Ethanol is highly corrosive and more than a few rubber hoses are required. The metallurgy of the entire engine is different.

The 'gasohol' of the '70s and '80s was never supposed to exceed 3-7%, yet many distributors kept adding more until they began receiving complaints. Then they backed it down a point or two but even that was still enough to cause problems. Usually they ended up around 9-11%. That was enough to eat the zinc from carburetors, turning them into junk. Carbs were made from base metal with zinc which filled the pores. Ethanol/methanol attacked the zinc and made the carbs porous.

Now imagine what 85% ethanol is going to do to pistons, camshafts, etc. Hoses will be the least of your problems.


Plus doesn't ethanol have a lower BTU per gallon than gas so don't you need more of it in the chamber to simply equal the same power as a normal gas engine? I know it has a higher octane rating but that really doesn't mean much if it doesn't create as much bang.

[shotgunslade]

Gest24:

Do you have a stall issue? If so, there is a temporary fix, until you get your new chip. Basically pull the air lines out of the cold start air valve, and put a manual air valve on it. Young Tom made that mod on mine, and I haven't had a stall since. Occasionally, I get a fast idle, but it soon goes away, and it is much less obnoxious than a stall at the wrong time.

[gest24]

Gest24:

Do you have a stall issue? If so, there is a temporary fix, until you get your new chip. Basically pull the air lines out of the cold start air valve, and put a manual air valve on it. Young Tom made that mod on mine, and I haven't had a stall since. Occasionally, I get a fast idle, but it soon goes away, and it is much less obnoxious than a stall at the wrong time.

Yeah, Tom and I hooked that up before he left. I even "tamper seal" on the valve so I can see if it slips.

[longassname]

By that logic you could barely make any power with nitromethane.


Plus doesn't ethanol have a lower BTU per gallon than gas so don't you need more of it in the chamber to simply equal the same power as a normal gas engine? I know it has a higher octane rating but that really doesn't mean much if it doesn't create as much bang.

[gest24]

Mike, if we buy the upgrade chip do we have to send back our old chip to you? Curious since its my first time doing something like this.

Edit: Just ordered mine, lol.

[longassname]

No. I'd rather you not go selling your 2v5 but if you do oh well. It's that persons loss. They will eventually want 2v6 and their purchase from you won't earn them any discount towards it.

Thanks for the order. Now if we can just get guinea pig to hurry up with his guinea pig thing we can ship it.


Mike, if we buy the upgrade chip do we have to send back our old chip to you? Curious since its my first time doing something like this.

Edit: Just ordered mine, lol.

[gest24]

No. I'd rather you not go selling your 2v5 but if you do oh well. It's that persons loss. They will eventually want 2v6 and their purchase from you won't earn them any discount towards it.

Thanks for the order. Now if we can just get guinea pig to hurry up with his guinea pig thing we can ship it.

I wasn't going to sell it, I was going to keep it in the family and put it in my mom's Pearl. I just need to get a z32 MAF (Or talk her into buying one). It'd be a nice B-day present for her and get me one step closer to making a clone of my pearl.

[benebob]

By that logic you could barely make any power with nitromethane.


Not logic, that would be science my friend.;)

[TomsSVX]

Not logic, that would be science my friend.;)

That depends on who you are talking to. Ethanol would be amazing for me t run n my car

Tom

[benebob]

That depends on who you are talking to. Ethanol would be amazing for me t run n my car

Tom

Why because it is a consistent underperformer when compared to gas? Seems like Bill should be using it instead of his solid rocket fuel.:D

[longassname]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make now but the scientific method uses logic. It's not very scientific to grab a characteristic like less btu's per volume and jump to a conclusion of why bother if you get lass bang. Less total bang? nope, you spray more of it in and you get more total bang. Less bang per $? not at current prices. Less bang per volume? maybe a little but not following directly by the btu's released by the combustion of a set volume. During and imediately after igniton ethanol burns slower than gasoline while in the later stages of combustion it burns faster. The result is more of the engergy from those btu's is transmitted through the crank instead of lost heating up engine components.

I think we've discussed earlier how the larger volume of fuel injected with e85 is actually a performance benefit thanks to the cooling effect of the extra fuel for vaporization and the extra mass to carry heat out the exhaust.




Not logic, that would be science my friend.;)

[longassname]

You are just completely missinformed there.



Why because it is a consistent underperformer when compared to gas? Seems like Bill should be using it instead of his solid rocket fuel.:D

[benebob]

You are just completely missinformed there.

Then explain it to me and show me proof. I've yet to see any and everything I've read on ethanol isn't good. Sure you can tune an engine to run on it better but you can also tune an engine to run on leaded race fuel too.

If you we're so high up on your $%^ box you would've realized I was asking why someone would go to it. In reality one should simply ditch gas/ethanol altogether and covert to propane... Properly tuned not much else out there can compete.

Oh and if I'm so mis-informed then why does the general racing community aside from dinosaur mullet boys who can only go in a straight line a 1/4 mile of the time shy away from this wonder product?

[longassname]

No need to get pissy. I'm not trying to argue with you but it's hard not correct you when you come into a thread that has been more throughly discussing the in's and outs of a fuel and you throw out something negative that doesn't make any sense. What am I supposed to do, not correct you? If I didn't somebody would be flaming you right now instead of me courtesly sharing my knowlege. If you can, ask yourself honestly, do you really think you know everything about e85 and I'm completely off my rock or is it possible you should try to consider what I have said with an open mind. I'll look back and make sure I'm not confusing this thread with another but I think I have already explained most of the major reasons why you can expect more power from e85 than gasoline.

I've got to call you on your logic again as well as your premises with the attempt to use the racing communities actions as an expert opinion to bolster your position. The racing community does not shy away from ethanol. Everyone knows ethanol makes more power. It's for exactly that reason that it's use is limited to certain classes of racing. Racing classes are used to limit performance.

[longassname]

Ok, my appologies...I haven't explained the performance aspects of ethanol in general or E85 more specifically in this thread. I explained them in Phil's turbo thread where the subject first came up. I'll go copy and paste them into here so that they are in this thread.

[NeedForSpeed]

In 2007, Indy Racing League 3.5L Honda engines will run 100% ethanol

[longassname]

eh, i'll just start from scratch here.

Gasoline is a petroleum product produced through distilling and cracking crude oil to come up with a mixture of hydrocarbon chains between 5 and 12 carbons in length. Shorter hydrocarbon chains are in their gaseous state at typical environmental temperatures. Longer hydrocarbon chains make up diesel, oils, etc. The 8 carbon long hydrocarbon octane is considered the best for the naturally aspirated internal combustion engine. This is the basis of the octane rating. A fuel with an octane rating of 100 has been tested to perform the same as gasoline that is comprised of 100% octane. The gasoline which is sold at the pump which is a mixture of all kinds of hydrocarbons between 5 and 12 carbons long has additives in it which control burn rate etc to make the fuel act more like octane and thus increase it's octane rating. The higher the octane rating a fuel the better it will run and the more power that can be generated with higher compression Thermal efficiency increases with compression so higher compression engines produce more power. The same is true for forced induction.

So what's a hydrocarbon anyway? Carbon is a tetravalent atom which means that it likes to bond with 4 other atoms in single bonds. Carbon likes to bond to other carbons and form chains and latices and the like. A hydrocarbon is a molecule that is comprised soley of carbons bonded to other carbons with hydrogens "saturating" the molecule attaching everywhere another carbon isn't attached so that every carbon has 4 somethings attached to it. When something other than a hydrogen or carbon is bonded to a carbon it is called a functional group.

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol. An alcohol is a hydrocarbon on which a Hydrogen has been replaced with a hydroxyl functional group, an OH. Ethanol is a carbon chain 2 carbons long with a hydroxyl group. It has the empirical C2H6O but can also be written as C2H5OH to help you visualize that you have two carbons attached to eachother and that the three single bonds on the one carbon are saturated with hydrogens, two of the single bonds on the 2nd carbon have hydrogens, and the third single bond has had a hydrogen replaced with the OH hydroxyl functional group. The hydroxyl makes ethanol a liquid at room temperature. It is much bigger and much heavier than a hydrogen. Because of this ethanol produces less btu's per unit weight burned than gasoline. That does not in any way indicate that ethanol makes less power than gasoline. It simply means you need to combust a greater mass of ethanol to release the same amount of heat energy. This says nothing about the comparative amount of heat energy that can be released during combustion of the two fuels in the same engine or about how much of that energy is turned into kinetic energy. You can and typically do combust a larger mass of ethanol than gasoline in the same engine and do produce more heat and more of that heat is converted into kinetic engergy. The main drawbacks of ethanol are that 1) A cold engine is dificult to impossible to start with 100% ethanol. Gasoline is mixed with ethanol to make it startable. 2) when combusted with with water pressent formic acid is produced which accelerates engine wear. It is not highly corrosive like methanol which was responsible for the majority of engine damage when alcohols were mixed with gasoline in 70's fuel shortage but it does produce formic acid when combusted with water present and this downside must be combatted with acid nuetralizing motor oils etc.

E85 is a mix of gasoline and ethanol, 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol. A cold engine will start with E85. E85 burns slowly during the inital phases of combustion and rapidly during the later phases of combustion. These characteristics increase the amount of energy that is tranmitted to the crank and decrease the amount that is lost as heat through the engine. It is also very resistant to detonation. E85 has an octane rating of 105. It will run better and produce more power in a high compression engine or engines with forced induction than premium unleaded gasoline will. By volume approximately 30% more E85 must be injected than gasoline to obtain the propper afr for E85.

E85 and the SVX: The engine management system of the svx carefully times the injection of fuel to use it to cool the air fuel charge increasing it's density and improving performance. It times fuel injection to end just prior to the intake valve opening. The fuel is injected onto the hot intake valves where it is vaporized cooling the valves and cooling the intake charge. The larger amount of E85 vaporized increased this cooling effect and increases the density of the intake charge. This is always beneficial and particularly and hugely beneficial when forced induction is used and intake temps are high. The additional mass in the combustion chamber when E85 fuel is used provides more mass to carry heat out the exhaust. The combustion chamber is better cooled and exhaust gas temps with E85 are much lower than they are with gasoline. For turbo applications this gives them more mass pushing their turbines with less heat damaging their turbos. It also prevents piston failure from heat and reduces the burden on the engine's cooling system.

[TomsSVX]

Why because it is a consistent underperformer when compared to gas? Seems like Bill should be using it instead of his solid rocket fuel.:D

Well Ben bang for my buck comes in huge right here. E85 has a octane rating of 105 if I remember correctly. this alone will allow me to run more boost on stock internals without risking detonation. Those higher boost #'s along with Micheal's explaination of how much better ethanol enters, burns and exits the chambers will increase the engines perfromance dramatically and for a forced induction car do just as much as $7 per gallon 105 race fuel only ringing in at a glorious $2.25 per gallon. So bang for your buck is severley increased there. We are also testing components on the stock SVX fuel system to see how they hold up to extended exposure to E85 that has been contaminated with water. So this should also help those that fear this fuel come to terms with the fact that we really should look somewhere else than the dinosaurs for fuel to keep our cars going. Not trying to deny that the fuel does burn at much less of a BTU per volume BUT there are gains that you are merely hiding behind these disadvantages.

Tom

[benebob]

Well Ben bang for my buck comes in huge right here. E85 has a octane rating of 105 if I remember correctly. this alone will allow me to run more boost on stock internals without risking detonation. Those higher boost #'s along with Micheal's explaination of how much better ethanol enters, burns and exits the chambers will increase the engines perfromance dramatically and for a forced induction car do just as much as $7 per gallon 105 race fuel only ringing in at a glorious $2.25 per gallon. So bang for your buck is severley increased there. We are also testing components on the stock SVX fuel system to see how they hold up to extended exposure to E85 that has been contaminated with water. So this should also help those that fear this fuel come to terms with the fact that we really should look somewhere else than the dinosaurs for fuel to keep our cars going. Not trying to deny that the fuel does burn at much less of a BTU per volume BUT there are gains that you are merely hiding behind these disadvantages.

Tom


Not hiding one bit. Remember propane would be a much better choice and CHEAPER than E-85. Longa$$name seems convinced that e-85 is the same is race ethanol (which it isn't and never would even come close). There's this certain equation that Einstein came up with that proves the truth about E-85. Sure there's advantages and disadvantages to everything. Ethanol isn't the answer since it takes more than a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol. Why else would Bush support it?

Still waiting for you'r proof there L... Oh right YOU'RE WRONG SO THERE ISN'T ANY!

[Duckie]

The E85 mr2 must be fake...no way it consistantly is running 11.5s at MY elevation with such JUNK... I haven't seen it do so countless times either, and there is no way it ran a 11.2 in sac with using such a fuel. Obviously the gasoline it used to run on is far superior.

When it comes down to it E85 beats out 93 octane and even 100 octane. The only place that it loses to a standard type fuel is when you get into the 110octane lvl and do you really feel like buying such a fuel?

It takes more than a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of E85? First of all they are refined in two different ways that are fairly independent of each other. Did you know it takes roughly a cup of oil to create a soda bottle? Does that mean that same cup of oil would have been able to be turned into gasoline? No. Plain and simple, no.

I know very very very little about E85. This is both good and bad. Since I don't care about it either way I am not biased and will not take sides on what is better. What I DO know is that I have seen VERY fast cars run it even though they are daily driven and have been using the stuff for about a year now. Sure they have had their share of problems...but what 11 second car doesn't? Do I think/they think it was E85s fault? No.

Why doesn't the entire race community adopt the fuel you ask? Well, since you have forgotten how reluctant people are to change, because they would be using something they dont know how to tune on and heaven forbid there be a learning curve...then I will just leave you with a few comments.

Pushrod engines will always be superior
Engine management? Whats that?
AWD is a HORRIBLE system that will never see mass production
Supercharging and turbos can't be reliable, there are too many variables.
Airbags? Nah, my steel car keeps me safe.
Alch/water cooling is crazy talk and there is no way it could work
Black is actually white, they had a press confrence yesterday.

[benebob]

The E85 mr2 must be fake...no way it consistantly is running 11.5s at MY elevation with such JUNK... I haven't seen it do so countless times either, and there is no way it ran a 11.2 in sac with using such a fuel. Obviously the gasoline it used to run on is far superior.

When it comes down to it E85 beats out 93 octane and even 100 octane. The only place that it loses to a standard type fuel is when you get into the 110octane lvl and do you really feel like buying such a fuel?

It takes more than a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of E85? First of all they are refined in two different ways that are fairly independent of each other. Did you know it takes roughly a cup of oil to create a soda bottle? Does that mean that same cup of oil would have been able to be turned into gasoline? No. Plain and simple, no.

I know very very very little about E85. This is both good and bad. Since I don't care about it either way I am not biased and will not take sides on what is better. What I DO know is that I have seen VERY fast cars run it even though they are daily driven and have been using the stuff for about a year now. Sure they have had their share of problems...but what 11 second car doesn't? Do I think/they think it was E85s fault? No.

Why doesn't the entire race community adopt the fuel you ask? Well, since you have forgotten how reluctant people are to change, because they would be using something they dont know how to tune on and heaven forbid there be a learning curve...then I will just leave you with a few comments.

Pushrod engines will always be superior
Engine management? Whats that?
AWD is a HORRIBLE system that will never see mass production
Supercharging and turbos can't be reliable, there are too many variables.
Airbags? Nah, my steel car keeps me safe.
Alch/water cooling is crazy talk and there is no way it could work
Black is actually white, they had a press confrence yesterday.


Hmmm.. Lets see, give it 20 years and you won't have a home so it really doesn't matter. All that corn growning in the midwest will run your wells dry by then. At least I'll have ethanol to get crappy mileage and less power out of.:D

[svxistentialist]

Hmmm.. Lets see, give it 20 years and you won't have a home so it really doesn't matter. All that corn growning in the midwest will run your wells dry by then. At least I'll have ethanol to get crappy mileage and less power out of.:D

Good to see a sense of humour coming back to this discussion.:)

Ethanol being produced from green crops [can be sugar cane, can be corn, can be lots of things] ensures it is CO2 neutral, because the CO2 it releases to the atmosphere is re-absorbed in the growing process. As CO2 is known to be a major contributor to global warming, then by that definition using ethanol fuel is a Good Thing, at least it's less harmful than gasoline.

It is costly to produce at present, but not gallon for gallon. Production percentage costs in the US can be around 75% mark, but in Brazil their advanced production distillation methods with sugar cane are way better, about 25%, so improvements are on the cards for the future.

The only grey clouds on the horizon are the ones you mention Ben, massive production will require massive acreage. This in turn will use up possible food production acreage, and world food surpluses are being used up very quickly over the last few years.

So there is yin and yang, as with everything else.

Because ethanol fuel comes from a renewable source, unlike oil, which is dwindling, it has to figure as a fuel for the future. Propane can be generated from coal stocks too, so there will always be a place for that fuel as well in reciprocating engines, so long as the price structure suits.

Joe

[NeedForSpeed]

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php/press-release/1685/

Biomass e85 is coming to California, produced in state.
LAN is way ahead of this with his programming, wow.
105 octane to replace crappy 91 super CA octane, sounds good.
CA gas on par with the best in the world, what not to like?
Low CO and HC emissions, probably pass tests without cats, yes.
The svx was designed in high octane Japan, not no octane CA
Factory intended power from our high compression engines, okay,
Less dependance on foreign oil reserves, amen,
SVX, ALWAYS AND FOREVER AHEAD OF IT'S TIME!!

Tom, what components are you testing? Way to go by the way!!

With all the spare parts available, did you cut up a piece of a gas tank and drop it in a jar of e85? Do the same with all the fuel pump hoses, fuel pump, etc.? These parts are rarely saved when cars are parted and crushed, someone send Tom parts if needed!

I'll run e85 on a couple of my cars, as soon as it becomes available here. That should not be long, the governor likes it.



Well Ben bang for my buck comes in huge right here. E85 has a octane rating of 105 if I remember correctly. this alone will allow me to run more boost on stock internals without risking detonation. Those higher boost #'s along with Micheal's explaination of how much better ethanol enters, burns and exits the chambers will increase the engines perfromance dramatically and for a forced induction car do just as much as $7 per gallon 105 race fuel only ringing in at a glorious $2.25 per gallon. So bang for your buck is severley increased there. We are also testing components on the stock SVX fuel system to see how they hold up to extended exposure to E85 that has been contaminated with water. So this should also help those that fear this fuel come to terms with the fact that we really should look somewhere else than the dinosaurs for fuel to keep our cars going. Not trying to deny that the fuel does burn at much less of a BTU per volume BUT there are gains that you are merely hiding behind these disadvantages.

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Not hiding one bit. Remember propane would be a much better choice and CHEAPER than E-85. Longa$$name seems convinced that e-85 is the same is race ethanol (which it isn't and never would even come close). There's this certain equation that Einstein came up with that proves the truth about E-85. Sure there's advantages and disadvantages to everything. Ethanol isn't the answer since it takes more than a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol. Why else would Bush support it?

Still waiting for you'r proof there L... Oh right YOU'RE WRONG SO THERE ISN'T ANY!


How does it take more than a gallon of gas to produce a allon of E85?? it is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is price at current around 75% the cost of a gallon of premium. Besides the ability to run higher boost and make less emitions AND save money, you are using a renewable resource which will not depleat oil supplies that are needed for other applications. Ben even if it does decrease your mileage, you will still spend relatively less buying more of it. Why are you not converting and tunning your cars for propane then??

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Tom, what components are you testing? Way to go by the way!!

With all the spare parts available, did you cut up a piece of a gas tank and drop it in a jar of e85? Do the same with all the fuel pump hoses, fuel pump, etc.? These parts are rarely saved when cars are parted and crushed, someone send Tom parts if needed!

I'll run e85 on a couple of my cars, as soon as it becomes available here. That should not be long, the governor likes it.


We will be testing a fuel injector and o rings... fuel rails... fuel pump... and misc hoses and o-rings. When we do this and get results we will let all of u know our findings... good or bad

Tom

[svxistentialist]

We will be testing a fuel injector and o rings... fuel rails... fuel pump... and misc hoses and o-rings. When we do this and get results we will let all of u know our findings... good or bad

Tom

Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe:)

[Phast SVX]

Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe:)

To increase the chance of acidic corrosion i will be adding a small amount of water to the can, this will cause the caustic acid to form as it would if the fuel system were contaminated.
phil

[NeedForSpeed]

Well, figure of speech, sort of:

I was assuming Tom would add some water, some urine, stir and then test in a Philly snow bank and later, in direct summer sun. Tom seems more than capable enough to devise a variety of torture tests, perhaps a baseline with e85 and another with water, etc. I wonder about that plastic fuel tank though, I would really like to see how a piece of that holds up.

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.

Ron may have been using a figure of speech when he mentioned dropping components into a jar of E85. No?

Well, this sort of testing will be a bit less rigorous than that used by the SAE and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it will be better than nothing. However, it will not be as wearing a test on components as when they are subjected to temperatures, changes of temperature, friction wear, and worst of all the formation of acids from water being in the fuel.

If they wrinkle up and wither away, you will know for sure you have a problem. If they don't, testing under these conditions will not guarantee that you won't shortly get accelerated wear, erosion or failure under operational conditions.

It would be better to get hard information on these matters either from the manufacturer or from some university engineering facility.

Joe:)

[TomsSVX]

Phil will be doing the tests. I merely ran the idea by LAN one of the many times I had to call him during my Stage3 install. Yes they will be kept at room temperature and will not be moved or disturbed for two weeks in E85 that contains a fair amount of water (typically get water in your fuel system) and see if our fuel system merely contains elemental coatings to keep the materials from deteriorating or if they are at risk to corrosion by the new fuel. Either way, it won't be conclusive but helpful to say the least

Tom

[shotgunslade]

Just ordered my Stage 2, Version 6 chip. Will run it on whatever gas I can find. With luck, I will have it in before I go to Watkins Glen on Sept 18.

[Phast SVX]

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.

If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil

[svxistentialist]

Well, figure of speech, sort of:

I was assuming Tom would add some water, some urine, stir and then test in a Philly snow bank and later, in direct summer sun. Tom seems more than capable enough to devise a variety of torture tests, perhaps a baseline with e85 and another with water, etc. I wonder about that plastic fuel tank though, I would really like to see how a piece of that holds up.

Manufacturer help? University help? That's doubtful. But a few adventurous owners sacrificing low budget svx projects, that's possible.

OK Ron, you got me, I forgot the urine test!!!:eek: :p

Well, it's OK, Phil is doing the tests. I have seen how he drives on a video, so I reckon it will be plenty aggressive and vigorous.

:D

[svxistentialist]

If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil

Hey Phil

Best of luck with it. I trust and hope you will do no damage, if careful.

Elsewhere in this thread I have said I reckon our stuff will probably handle the fuel OK, and I still think that way.

Just the same, when you are starting to use the fuel, start off with a lower percentage, say a half tank of it or a third of a tank. Let the ECU learn and adjust gradually, the way it likes to. That's the way the guy on NASIOC dialled in the WRX, and it's going OK after a year or two.

Best of luck.

Joe:)

[immortal_suby]

If for some reason(however highly unlikely reason) my stock fuel system gets eaten alive, i will hope that fellow members of the network would help me out to replace the parts at a fair price. That is all someone who is testing the limits can ask.

Listen Bobb, its just like anything in life. If you dont take any risks, you dont get any return. It isnt a static question or response, but a matter of choice.

That being said, i will fire the car on E85 on Monday.

phil

Phil, I have my spare engine in the garage complete with injectors and rails. No intake (sent it to LAN) but most of the other stuff is on there if you need it. I also have a spare throttle body. It'll cost you some beer at the next meet but that's about it.

Don't mind Benebob you guys, he's just bitter about the nitrous kit I won't lend him. ;)

[svxistentialist]

There is a lot of information on here about conversions, and mentioning what metals may cause problems:

http://e85forum.com/about44.html

Joe

[benebob]

Good to see a sense of humour coming back to this discussion.:)

Ethanol being produced from green crops [can be sugar cane, can be corn, can be lots of things] ensures it is CO2 neutral, because the CO2 it releases to the atmosphere is re-absorbed in the growing process. As CO2 is known to be a major contributor to global warming, then by that definition using ethanol fuel is a Good Thing, at least it's less harmful than gasoline.

It is costly to produce at present, but not gallon for gallon. Production percentage costs in the US can be around 75% mark, but in Brazil their advanced production distillation methods with sugar cane are way better, about 25%, so improvements are on the cards for the future.

The only grey clouds on the horizon are the ones you mention Ben, massive production will require massive acreage. This in turn will use up possible food production acreage, and world food surpluses are being used up very quickly over the last few years.

So there is yin and yang, as with everything else.

Because ethanol fuel comes from a renewable source, unlike oil, which is dwindling, it has to figure as a fuel for the future. Propane can be generated from coal stocks too, so there will always be a place for that fuel as well in reciprocating engines, so long as the price structure suits.

Joe


Sense of humor is always there. You don't spend time in a super competative architecture program w/o being able to both take it or receive it. As for your 75% that doesn't include everything. The real costs are in transportation of the product to facilites, actually farming it, distilling it (which is typically done in coal burning power plant areas built around the time oh say Mr. Mummert was born). Energy wise you get about 80% of the BTUs out of a gallon of e-85 as it takes in btus to produce it. That's pretty green even with fuzy math! Cough... cough... choke... choke...

As you say Columbia is doing well with their production which is true but those crops don't grow here well and honestly if anyone here believes the gov't is gonna allow the only crop that would be cost effective to be grown (hemp) in the US you need to put down that bong. Reason its corn is we pay through taxes for something like 20% of the corn grown in the us that usually is scrapped as giving it away to starving people would result in get this... lower prices for corn so unlike gas which is taxed beyond belief (up to a $1.00 in some states (yes I've been to Ireland so you'd DIE for that tax on gas) e-85 is subsidized by on average $.65 a gallon directly and $.90 indirectly.

[TomsSVX]

With all that said there is really only one way to find out for sure if it would be a benefit for a N/A car which is mostly stock. That is to try it. Right now, Phil is doing the major testing with his car and extra parts I have like the injectors, fuel rails... etc. It would be GREAT if someone has a spare fuel tank they wouldn't mind cutting up and using a portoin of for these tests as well. To respond to the question of what metals are effected... We are not exactly sure what metals are included in our engines and what kind of protective coatings are applied if any. So it goes back to the drawing board until we do some rudimentary testing. Which should commence shortly

Tom

[Phast SVX]

Phil, I have my spare engine in the garage complete with injectors and rails. No intake (sent it to LAN) but most of the other stuff is on there if you need it. I also have a spare throttle body. It'll cost you some beer at the next meet but that's about it.

Don't mind Benebob you guys, he's just bitter about the nitrous kit I won't lend him. ;)

Thanks alot Matt, hopefully none will be needed ;) Look for my update early next week.

[Phast SVX]

Hey Phil

Best of luck with it. I trust and hope you will do no damage, if careful.

Elsewhere in this thread I have said I reckon our stuff will probably handle the fuel OK, and I still think that way.

Just the same, when you are starting to use the fuel, start off with a lower percentage, say a half tank of it or a third of a tank. Let the ECU learn and adjust gradually, the way it likes to. That's the way the guy on NASIOC dialled in the WRX, and it's going OK after a year or two.

Best of luck.

Joe:)

Thanks Joe. I have an actual map for e85, so no real learn in or trimming is required as was with the WRX guy who pioneered his system. We should be in RBT territory with any hope, and if not i will have to drop boost back down and go from there. Either way i should be making good good power.
phil

[Phast SVX]

Just ordered my Stage 2, Version 6 chip. Will run it on whatever gas I can find. With luck, I will have it in before I go to Watkins Glen on Sept 18.
I will do my best to make sure my testing gets done this week.
phil

[shotgunslade]

As I mentioned in a previous post, ethanol from agricultural sources which compete with foodstuffs won't get the job done. If you do the numbers, you will find meeting our gasoline consumption with ethanol produced by corn or sugar beets would use up the entire production of these crops. Such is the magnitude of our gasoline thirst.

The bright spot on the horizon is cellulosic ethanol, which requires a 2 step process. The first is to convert cellulose into sugar or starch, which is exactly the process that goes in the gut of a cow to allow it to live off grass. The resulting sugar or starch can then go through a conventinoal fermentation process to convert it to ethanol. The important thing about cellulose as a raw material is that we have so much cellulose waste. All agricultural waste, corn shucks and stalks, wheat chaff, dead leaves, sawdust, etc, all are mostly cellulose.

Converting this stuff into ethanol and then burning the ethanol as fuel will not add to the carbon dioxide content of the air, because this stuff will oxidize anyway as it rots. There will be an initial burden because, undoubtedly, converting this stuff to ethanol will reduce the mass of it sitting around and rotting, but once you are up to steady state production, there would be no net gain of CO2 to the atmosphere.

[Earthworm]

So are you going to drain the old gas or run the tank empty before switching to E85?

Would it be possible to get the ECU to automatically adjust for different ethanol levels? eg. 1/4 normal gasolene + 3/4 E85

[longassname]

The span between rbt and lbt with ethanol/e85 is much larger than it is with gasoline. You can run way way way rich without loosing power. This means if there are a couple or few galons of gas left in the tank thanks to our fuel guage and tank design which likes to leave us with a few gallons in the tank it will still run just fine.

A small amount of ethanol works as a great additive to gasoline for increasing the octane level. When you are switching back to gasoline you will want to get the tank as empty as possible before you fill with gasoline but you still shouldn't have to drain the tank. Fill up with E85, start the car while still on the ethanol code, a few seconds later when the fuel lines are running gas and the car starts going rich rich rich throw the switch to go to the gasoline code. With a couple gallons of E85 mixed in the tank with gasoline your lambda will be slightly leaner than if it was straight gasoline but with the increased octane it should still run just fine.

You should have no problems going back and forth between E85 and straight gasoline. Just run the tank pretty close to empty before you switch.




So are you going to drain the old gas or run the tank empty before switching to E85?

Would it be possible to get the ECU to automatically adjust for different ethanol levels? eg. 1/4 normal gasolene + 3/4 E85

[Earthworm]

Can it be switched on the fly or do you have to shut everything off first?

[longassname]

It's the same switching mechanism as always and can be switched on the fly. When going from E85 to gasoline you will want to switch on the fly. When going from gasoline to E85 you'll want to switch before you start or imediately after on the fly.

[benebob]

Don't mind Benebob you guys, he's just bitter about the nitrous kit I won't lend him. ;)


Bitter, no, I could care less as I rank drag racing right up there beside the WWE as sports go and besides, we only have you to blame if we can't break into the top ten. I'm simply waiting for an explination as what they are talking about defies science. No one here seems to be capable of showing that e-85 is capable of higher power then regular gas is. Then again, that was to be expected since everything I've read on it since someone first brought up the idea contradicts what L............... is saying.

[TomsSVX]

So Ben, you are honestly suggesting that if I run E85 in my car with the diff crank pulley say making about 17lbs of boost that my performance will get worse than I am on Jersey 90/10 fuel at 12lbs??? Are you ****ing serious?? Yes I will burn more fuel but at the same time I will not be burning as much money. Jusitify that as a loss and a waste of time

Tom

[Phast SVX]

Bitter, no, I could care less as I rank drag racing right up there beside the WWE as sports go and besides, we only have you to blame if we can't break into the top ten. I'm simply waiting for an explination as what they are talking about defies science. No one here seems to be capable of showing that e-85 is capable of higher power then regular gas is. Then again, that was to be expected since everything I've read on it since someone first brought up the idea contradicts what L............... is saying.

IT dosnt defy science, it simply defies what you believe in your head about combustion a cycle. It has less BTU per volume. This is what tripps you up. RBT for ethanol(and yes e85 at the pump) It runs at 8:1 and 9:1. . Theirin is a huge power benefit. Cooler combustion and lower temps mean a lot more boost can be run before detonation is run into. And i do mean much more boost. Some people are having problems getting the engine to warm up enough with the stock thermostat in race cars, idling them all the way while waiting in line to keep the engine up to temp while everyone is shutting them off with hoods open. Thats a good problem.
Please refrain from commenting until i post on my results.

[benebob]

So Ben, you are honestly suggesting that if I run E85 in my car with the diff crank pulley say making about 17lbs of boost that my performance will get worse than I am on Jersey 90/10 fuel at 12lbs??? Are you ****ing serious?? Yes I will burn more fuel but at the same time I will not be burning as much money. Jusitify that as a loss and a waste of time

Tom


If you read my posts Tom you saw that I asked for an explination as the racing communty as a whole has shyed away for the reasons I brought up. Oh and some that I didn't such as heavier weight to go the same distance as you need more fuel, less life expectancy for the engine and components as the engine corrodes into dust.

As for your comparison you just changed the senario though. Making 12 lbs of boost you won't have any gain from running e-85 than you would making 12lbs of boost with gas. You need to compare apples to apples young t not apples to steaks.:D Better fuel, not in the least, better tailpipe emissions sure. Remember the racers that have gone to e-85 have done so for some very good reasons: ALL cars in the series need to as it is sanctioned and marketing.

[Earthworm]

Seems like E85 will only benefit forced induction vehicles by allowing higher boost levels.

[Phast SVX]

Seems like E85 will only benefit forced induction vehicles by allowing higher boost levels.
It allows for tons more ignition advance on a NA motor. 3.3L with 10:1 compression running 6 or 7 degrees more of advance will give you big power.
phil

[Phast SVX]

Making 12 lbs of boost you won't have any gain from running e-85 than you would making 12lbs of boost with gas.

You are incorrect. Do cooler combustion temperatures mean more power on the same level of boost? Yes. You will make more power running alchohol then you will on gas, all else the same.

[benebob]

It allows for tons more ignition advance on a NA motor. 3.3L with 10:1 compression running 6 or 7 degrees more of advance will give you big power.
phil

Correction. It will give you bigger power up high, worse down low equaling itself out for the most part. You won't run any faster around a track but you will be able to get into the mine anatomy is bigger arguement with a H2 driver after going to a dyno.

[Earthworm]

Lets race for the first SVX dyno pull on E85 :D

[TomsSVX]

more timing will give you power up top as well as down low. ESP. with such a low geared tranny like a stock SVX has it needs all the power and torque it can get to get it's ass moving.

Tom

[oab_au]

Why would you want to run it all the time. Is it the cheaper cost? for it sure isn't because it is good to run. It has more problems associated with it, than its advantages. Sure it has a higher latent heat of evaporation, but this also makes it a pig to get going in the cold.

The really only advantages of Alcohol is its ability to run very high compression ratios. I mean like 14/15:1. This is where the power comes from, not the fuel itself. To run it on a low ratio will achieve nothing compared to the problems it will cause.

The benefits that can be obtained by using it in a blown car, can be had by using water injection, or fogging Alcohol into the manifold, when boost starts. The rest of the time you have the easy start, no corrosion, good mileage of petrol.:)

Now tell me I have missed the point, because I am set in my ways like Beav.:rolleyes: and can't accept something new. :o


Harvey. ;)

[TomsSVX]

because it looks like in a couple years you won't be able to afford the $7 per gallon that gas is going to cost. Not to mention other things like smog. WOW i cannot believe how many people are so terrified of E85 and so hung up on gasoline.... Get ready people, Gas isn't going to be around for ever

Tom

[benebob]

because it looks like in a couple years you won't be able to afford the $7 per gallon that gas is going to cost. Not to mention other things like smog. WOW i cannot believe how many people are so terrified of E85 and so hung up on gasoline.... Get ready people, Gas isn't going to be around for ever

Tom


Neither will ethanol my friend. Read up on it and you'll find out the truth.

Still waiting for that affordable hydrogen car W. promised me in 4 more years!:D

[SVXRide]

Fuel cell....repeat after me....Fuel cell:D :p :D

-Bill

[oab_au]

because it looks like in a couple years you won't be able to afford the $7 per gallon that gas is going to cost. Not to mention other things like smog. WOW i cannot believe how many people are so terrified of E85 and so hung up on gasoline.... Get ready people, Gas isn't going to be around for ever

Tom

Tom surly you don't believe that the price of E85 is going to stay cheaper that petrol. Human nature says, sell it for as much as the suckers will pay.

Having used it for racing,.yes I am terrified of having to use it for everyday use. LPG,. and Natural gas are much easier to use, much easier to produce and in more plentifully supply. Using all the food growing areas, to produce a fuel for cars, instead of fuel for humans, makes no sense.

I have also used water injection to allow 14 lbs boost on a 9:1 side valve engine, when our fuel was 85 octane.

Harvey.;)

[TomsSVX]

Harvey, from day 1 I have expressed my lacking appreciation for meth/water injection as much as I hate VRO pumps on 2 cycle engines. For the simple fact that it is external. Anyway if you don't want to run E85... then don't. If you do, then do it. Either way I could give a crap less what anyone else wants to do. I see an oportunity to make more power and save some cash. I also see that it will reduce our overflow of crops being grown for no reason. I don't know if you know Harvey but in the US the gov't pays farmers to overgrow their crops in order to keep the food prices stabilized. So this excess can now stop being thrown out and turned into an effective fuel. Will it be the best thign ever?? of course not will it work for now?? You are goddamn right it will

Tom

[longassname]

I don't want to get into promoting any particular fuel. I'm just making the software that was asked for the the fuel that is begining to become available at the pump. But.......

You just brought up some of the economic issues regarding "alternative" fuels that really do deserve commenting on.

Yes, business like to charge a price that maximizes total profits. They measure the elasticity of demand which is the effect of a price change on the amount of consumption and set the price at the point where the amount that will be demanded has them operating at the production level that gives them the maximium total profit over the operating period. In the gasoline business they are experts at this. That little satellite dish on the roof of the gas station is part of the communication between the station and headquarters. Sales information is beamed to headquarters where the big computer monitors the effects of price changes on sales and calculates how much they can raise the price without decreasing sales volume enough that total profit decreases instead of increases. Then they beam back to the gas station how much to raise the price or if they overdid it yesterday how much to lower it today. Because most people will not go out of their way to save a few cents per gallon when the neighboring station raises their price 1, 2, or 3 cents depending on how lazy me, you, and your neighbors are not enough people go the cheaper station to make it not worth their while to raise the price too. In fact when the big computer at the headquarters of the competing station sees the very small increase in business it says hey we can raise the price tomorrow by so many cents. Gasoline prices continue to creep up.

There is no doubt that this very same system will be used for E85 sales and the price of E85 will be determined in just the same way. I have absolutely no idea where the price of E85 will be next year but I do know the effect having an alternative fuel will have on the pricing of gasoline. An alternative makes the demand for gasoline more elastic. Price increases cause more customers to shoot the bird to their gasoline provider and use the alternative. The big computer calculates this and doesn't rais the price tomorrow by 1,2, or 3 cents.


Tom surly you don't believe that the price of E85 is going to stay cheaper that petrol. Human nature says, sell it for as much as the suckers will pay.

Having used it for racing,.yes I am terrified of having to use it for everyday use. LPG,. and Natural gas are much easier to use, much easier to produce and in more plentifully supply. Using all the food growing areas, to produce a fuel for cars, instead of fuel for humans, makes no sense.

I have also used water injection to allow 14 lbs boost on a 9:1 side valve engine, when our fuel was 85 octane.

Harvey.;)

[oab_au]

I suppose if you have to run on E85, you might as well get the best out of it. :)

You could build a NA engine on a 14:1 comp ratio, and rev it to 9000.:)

Harvey.;)

[NeedForSpeed]

Michael,

I read the NAO... thread on ethanol, very interesting.

Could we use the gas code stage2v6 with 30% larger injectors and e85? Would that be better than stock injectors and the e85 code when using e85?

If stock injectors are limited in flow, are we asking for 30% more flow from stock injectors when running e85 programming and e85 fuel?

Thanks, and good work!


It's the same switching mechanism as always and can be switched on the fly. When going from E85 to gasoline you will want to switch on the fly. When going from gasoline to E85 you'll want to switch before you start or imediately after on the fly.

[NeedForSpeed]

Harvey,

The best California premium is 91 octane, and I know our high comp engines need more octane than that.

e85 is 15% gasoline, but those using e85 said a couple gallons of gasoline per tank helps the cold weather starting.

Another reason to use e85 may be to pass smog tests. As the cats age, it becomes increasingly difficult to pass the tests in the strict states.

Can't buy it publicly in Northern California, not yet.

Why would you want to run it all the time. Is it the cheaper cost? for it sure isn't because it is good to run. It has more problems associated with it, than its advantages. Sure it has a higher latent heat of evaporation, but this also makes it a pig to get going in the cold.

The really only advantages of Alcohol is its ability to run very high compression ratios. I mean like 14/15:1. This is where the power comes from, not the fuel itself. To run it on a low ratio will achieve nothing compared to the problems it will cause.

The benefits that can be obtained by using it in a blown car, can be had by using water injection, or fogging Alcohol into the manifold, when boost starts. The rest of the time you have the easy start, no corrosion, good mileage of petrol.:)

Now tell me I have missed the point, because I am set in my ways like Beav.:rolleyes: and can't accept something new. :o


Harvey. ;)

[TomsSVX]

Michael,

I read the NAO... thread on ethanol, very interesting.

Could we use the gas code stage2v6 with 30% larger injectors and e85? Would that be better than stock injectors and the e85 code when using e85?

If stock injectors are limited in flow, are we asking for 30% more flow from stock injectors when running e85 programming and e85 fuel?

Thanks, and good work!

I am not positive when I say this but i believe the E85 code also has more timing as well as fuel...

Tom

[Phast SVX]

Well despite terrential rain and cold i put in 2v6 only to find out that both gas stations are out of e85 until wed...attendent said that they had beel selling more in the last couple weeks then in the last year. Ill be making a boose run on wed. The store owner who was attending the desk was pretty interested in my project as he was trying to make sure i knew i couldnt run it if i wasnt affv, and gave me the stores number to call and make sure that the truck came so i dont have to waste an hour long trip

phil

[TomsSVX]

cool, I lost my fuel pump time this week due to my oil pump anyway... Next week

Tom

[gest24]

Mike, any update on when the chips will be shipped?

[Phast SVX]

Mike, any update on when the chips will be shipped?
as soon as i can get a chance to test out the e85 code. Which should be tomorrow night. Sorry for the delay,
phil

[Phast SVX]

fired the car with 85 today, it stalled once, started it back up gave it a rev and before i knew it the car was idling better on E85then on gasoline. Smells good too ;) Cruising around the car behaved just as it would on gasoline. It runs very smoothly, and dosnt buck as badly while decelrating. The exhaust tone is slightly differnt but sounds great.

I have a 10lb spring in so i couldnt go full wot for too long without running out of fuel, but the car feels good. THe map is perfect, dropping down to about .76 lambda when i go wot. WIth all the extra cfm im pushing it would creep up fast so i obviously am running too much boost for our injectors on ethanol. I never ran into knock though.
AS its been cooler out i have been running out of fuel on gasoline at 8lbs of boost so i am going to either bump boost back down or just not worry about it and call it a project success for the summer atleast.
so this is really no suprise, but E85 runs very smoothly. Ship away :)

P.S. I rolled into hte parking lot when the gas light had been on for a good 15 miles. IT was running at about .95 Lambda but since there was a gallon or so of gas still in the car im sure that will come back up to a perfect 1.0 at idle. Awesome job mike, ill report back when i have finished the 3 gallons off and switch back to gas for a tank or two before the car is in storage for the winter.

phil

[sicksubie]

Cost??????

[sicksubie]

Never mind I just checked out LAN's web site

[TomsSVX]

to answer your previous questions if i remember them correctly.

Price:
Stage 2v6 is the same price Stage 2v5 was. Of course since there are now owners of previous versions of the stage 2 software with z32 maf meters I added a much cheaper upgrade option for those of you who fit into that category. For previous stage 2 owners the upgrade is $129. Before anyone who doesn't fit into that category tries being slick let me say when I say stage 2 owners I actually mean purchasers. To get the $129 price you have to be listed in our records as a stage 2 purchaser.

How do you get it:
order from our website. Wait a few days though. We aren't shipping it till our prototype tester verifies the e85 code is working correctly. I'll post in here when he does.

Always check the thread before asking questions that probobly have an answer

Tom

[longassname]

I spoke with Phil a little while ago and it seems the question some had about if E85 would make more power or not has been resoundingly answered with OH YEAH! Quite an accomplishment in my mind considering how well 2v6 gets power out gasoline. Speeking of gasoline I need to update our information on gasoline and 2v6. The ability to run regular unleaded gasoline was not dropped with the 2v6 software. The gasoline software in 2v6 works very well with all grades of unleaded fuel. I've been driving on regular unleaded since I finished the software.

He's going to fill up again so we can verify lambda at idle with a tank of fuel that is strictly e85 without the remnants of the last tank of gas left in it. When I get that info later tonight I'll be able to program the first ROMs with the official 2v6 software and send out the upgrades to you faithful early adapters who already ordered them. :)

[longassname]

Just spoke with Phil again. The lambda is right on. I'll be packing up the orders that have already been placed tonight and getting them out tomorrow.

[shotgunslade]

Fantastic. I'll have mine installed for the Lime Rock time trial on October 2. CART (Connecticut Autocross and Rally Team) has classified me as F/SP (they are using Solo classes) Looked at the cars in the class, and seems like I might have a bit of an advantage in that class. Potential thread hijack detected. Will relocate to General SVX Babble

[Phast SVX]

Another small update. As mike has said the lambda is right on. The car starts and runs good, smoothly. I have no put 130 miles on e85 with little or no troubles. No report on gas milage as i put 13 gallons in, and no gas light as of yet. My fule guage has a stuck floater and reads empty almost all the time


phil

[Phast SVX]

Switched back over to premium last night. Car did not miss a beat. I am really happy with this software. Im sure you all will be too ;)

[gest24]

Got my stage 2v6 today... gonna go pull the ECU and install the new chip. Can't wait to get rid of the jerry rig stall bypass, lol.

[Phast SVX]

Got my stage 2v6 today... gonna go pull the ECU and install the new chip. Can't wait to get rid of the jerry rig stall bypass, lol.
sweet, let me know how it goes. Im bored lol

[gest24]

Just got back from cruising around SD. The new version is nice. Snappy and quick. The dyno shop I usually go to was closed so I'll have to try another day to get dyno time and see how the new plots look.

My only issue was with the isis valve. I removed the bypass that Tom and I put on and replaced it with a straight piece of hose. But then the car was idling at 3K. Is my isis valve messed up from the bypass or do I need a check valve in the hose?

[longassname]

I think you mean IAC valve (idle air control valve) which I doubt is broken. This is just a guess but I am guessing tom bypassed the cold air bypass valve and put your little ballcock device in the middle of a hose going from the outlet on the snorkus and the inlet on the throttle body. It sounds like you just made that a straight hose going from the snorkus to the throttle body. That will give you way too much air at idle. The hose from the snorkus should go to the cold air bypass valve and then a hose from the cold air bypass valve should go to the throttle body. The cold air bypass valve is underneath the manifold on the driver's side.


Just got back from cruising around SD. The new version is nice. Snappy and quick. The dyno shop I usually go to was closed so I'll have to try another day to get dyno time and see how the new plots look.

My only issue was with the isis valve. I removed the bypass that Tom and I put on and replaced it with a straight piece of hose. But then the car was idling at 3K. Is my isis valve messed up from the bypass or do I need a check valve in the hose?

[gest24]

I think you mean IAC valve (idle air control valve) which I doubt is broken. This is just a guess but I am guessing tom bypassed the cold air bypass valve and put your little ballcock device in the middle of a hose going from the outlet on the snorkus and the inlet on the throttle body. It sounds like you just made that a straight hose going from the snorkus to the throttle body. That will give you way too much air at idle. The hose from the snorkus should go to the cold air bypass valve and then a hose from the cold air bypass valve should go to the throttle body. The cold air bypass valve is underneath the manifold on the driver's side.

Gotcha, makes sense... I didn't pay attention when we took the hoses off. But other than that, the new software is awesome!

[longassname]

Have you fixed your hoses yet?

Gotcha, makes sense... I didn't pay attention when we took the hoses off. But other than that, the new software is awesome!

[gest24]

Have you fixed your hoses yet?

I've been super busy with work and getting my old tranny packed up and ready to ship. I plan on putting her up on a stand this week to check some things underneith and I'll fix the hoses then.

Does anyone happen to have a picture of the Cold Start valve?


Other than that I love the new chip! My fiance even noticed a difference in the car, lol.

[SVXRide]

*snip*


Other than that I love the new chip! My fiance even noticed a difference in the car, lol.

and you needed a chip for this to happen?:rolleyes: :p
-Bill

[gest24]

and you needed a chip for this to happen?:rolleyes: :p
-Bill

lol, It was just surprising she felt a differnece between 2v5 and 2v6.

[SVXRide]

lol, It was just surprising she felt a differnece between 2v5 and 2v6.


:cool: :cool: :cool: :D
-Bill

[longassname]

Any more feedback? I'd like to hear impressions from everyone running 2v6?

[SVXRide]

Any more feedback? I'd like to hear impressions from everyone running 2v6?


Michael,
I'll have to install one first:rolleyes: :D :cool:
-Bill (still finishing up dyno R&D report...)

[Chiketkd]

(still finishing up dyno R&D report...)
I'm looking forward to that post! :)

Chike

[gest24]

Mike,
I'll be autoXing with the 2v6 software this weekend. Going to be a different course than last time but I'll def. be able to notice any difference. I'll post up some results after Saturday.

So far I really like how the chips work. You can fell a ton of tourque even in 6th up hill. :D

[dcarrb]

Just passing through, and I've not waded through half this thread, but to revisit the E85 issue, I think it's noteworthy that Subaru specifies up to 10% ethanol is cool. If anybody cares what the manufacturer thinks, there you go. (Pardon me if this has been mentioned.)

dcb

[TomsSVX]

ethanol better be good because I run 10% all the time with the fuel in Jersey. Sometimes it can be up to 15% but mostly 10

Tom

[Matthewmongan]

This looks good. I spoke with the head of the chem. department who instructs my environmental chem. class at su, he has some concerns about the possible wear on the fuel system, but we didnt have time to go into details.

[TomsSVX]

Thats why I sent several parts to PhastSVX to be tested in a corrosive batch of E-85. Fuel pump, fuel rail, o-rings, etc.... with a dash of water mixed in, we will see what our fuel systems will do with E-85

Tom

[gest24]

Well another update on my 2v6 experience. AutoX went well, new tires and the new software made a significant difference. Now only if I had experience the SVX would be a lot quicker, lol.

Now as for passanger feedback, my friend took his first ride in my pearl since the new software. He's been in it from 2v5 w/4EAT and 2v5 w/6MT. Last night we took the pearl out and he noticed a change in the power curve. I personally have noticed the tourque is almost always there now in 6th gear. I pass traffic up hill.

Next step is to go over to the AWD Dyno shop and see how the new graphs look. I'm thinking of doing a tune with him and seeing if we can massage my baby to 200whp.

[Phast SVX]

Well another update on my 2v6 experience. AutoX went well, new tires and the new software made a significant difference. Now only if I had experience the SVX would be a lot quicker, lol.

Now as for passanger feedback, my friend took his first ride in my pearl since the new software. He's been in it from 2v5 w/4EAT and 2v5 w/6MT. Last night we took the pearl out and he noticed a change in the power curve. I personally have noticed the tourque is almost always there now in 6th gear. I pass traffic up hill.

Next step is to go over to the AWD Dyno shop and see how the new graphs look. I'm thinking of doing a tune with him and seeing if we can massage my baby to 200whp.

What ecu/piggy back is he going to tune with?

phil

[gest24]

Yeah... I don't know... lol. I was going to go over to the shop and talk to him about what we could do to improve things. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to "tuning" and all the technical aspects of things like that. But I'm always open for ideas/tips.

[SVXRide]

What ecu/piggy back is he going to tune with?

phil


Hydra?
-Bill

[longassname]

Anybody else who has stage 2v6 want to give their opionions/impressions on it?

[shotgunslade]

I am about to reconnect my automatic air bypass valve. I had previously connected a manual valve into the line to cure the 5MT stall problem. Have users of Stage2 V 6 who have 5MT or 6MT notcied any stall problems? I know the new chip was supposed to adress this problem, but seeking user confirmation. Thanks.

[SVXRide]

Anybody else who has stage 2v6 want to give their opionions/impressions on it?


would love to...oh, that's right, I only have the 2v5:rolleyes: :p
-Bill

[longassname]

I would like that confirmation as well. It seems likely that I found the cause of the mt stall and fixed it but since I don't have one it's just theory until you guys confirm it for me.


I am about to reconnect my automatic air bypass valve. I had previously connected a manual valve into the line to cure the 5MT stall problem. Have users of Stage2 V 6 who have 5MT or 6MT notcied any stall problems? I know the new chip was supposed to adress this problem, but seeking user confirmation. Thanks.

[longassname]

Actually you and guest24 may be the only svx's with manual transmissions that have 2v6. A lot of the manual transmission guys are on the economy side of the community not to mention I think there are more vanagons running around with 2v6 than svx's at this point.

[AFBeefcake]

Once I get my 5 speed swap done. I hope to get 2v6.:)

[SVXelerator]

Actually you and guest24 may be the only svx's with manual transmissions that have 2v6. A lot of the manual transmission guys are on the economy side of the community not to mention I think there are more vanagons running around with 2v6 than svx's at this point.

Mr. Lan,

Does this mean you have plenty of $$ to put the manual transmission in your car and post up some "tuned" dyno plots? It will be exciting to see what your tuning skills can produce, given multiple hours on a DynaPac. 2v7 could be the breakthrough the SVX community is waiting for. Full documentation of your dyno runs would be appreciated.

[gest24]

I would've got some dyno plots for the V6 but the local AWD Dyno shut down. But the good ol butt dyno tells me the tourque curve is better but drops off quick at 6300. Peak pull feels like its at 5500-6000.

[Phast SVX]

Actually you and guest24 may be the only svx's with manual transmissions that have 2v6.
......... Always left out!

[longassname]

:confused: Did you take my post to mean that there are thousands of vanagons running 2v6 rather than very few svx's running it? I'm not exactly sure how very low volume svx sales equates into a justification for me to pour more of my time and money into rapid product development.

I believe the 2v6 software showcases what my tuning skills can produce through interative improvements resulting from months of my own road testing and the feedback provided by end users. If the ability to more acurately measure high flow air intakes up to twice the mass of stock, performance throttle enrichments, performance timing maps, performance fuel maps, improved compatability with manual transmissions, and the ability to run e85 all provided to a market that only purchases in volumes in the double digits isn't exciting I don't know what would do it. I'm always up for new ideas though. You tell me what you want and if enough people want it too to justify my investing my time and money into making it I'll do it.

Mr. Lan,

Does this mean you have plenty of $$ to put the manual transmission in your car and post up some "tuned" dyno plots? It will be exciting to see what your tuning skills can produce, given multiple hours on a DynaPac. 2v7 could be the breakthrough the SVX community is waiting for. Full documentation of your dyno runs would be appreciated.

[longassname]

You don't count...you have a turbo.


......... Always left out!

[NikFu S.]

LAN do you need more 2v6 test people? If so and if you need to know how it feels with a mostly stock car in sub zero weather :rolleyes: I can pick one up from you this week.

If not, hey I was gonna spring for it within the next couple months anyways.

[shotgunslade]

There is one interesting phenomenon I have noticed. When I lift of the throttle maybe in 2nd or 3rd gear and the rpm's drop down to maybe 2000 or so, there is a sudden onset of engine braking I can massage the accelerator very slightly and make it come on and go off. As rev's drop, foot off the accelerator, a a point, it feels like I suddenly hit the brakes. Touch the accelerator pedal very slightly, seems like brakes come off, car is still slowing down, rev's dropping, but not nearly so quickly. It's a real on-off thing. Could this be an artifact of my automatic throttle bypass valve being disconnected? Guess I will know nextweek, when I reconnect it.

[longassname]

Oh thanks, I appreciate the sentiment but no I was just looking for feedback when the suggestion that I invest in dyno time was put forward. Development is done. Purchase whenever you are ready.

Thanks



LAN do you need more 2v6 test people? If so and if you need to know how it feels with a mostly stock car in sub zero weather :rolleyes: I can pick one up from you this week.

If not, hey I was gonna spring for it within the next couple months anyways.

[Earthworm]

There is one interesting phenomenon I have noticed. When I lift of the throttle maybe in 2nd or 3rd gear and the rpm's drop down to maybe 2000 or so, there is a sudden onset of engine braking I can massage the accelerator very slightly and make it come on and go off. As rev's drop, foot off the accelerator, a a point, it feels like I suddenly hit the brakes. Touch the accelerator pedal very slightly, seems like brakes come off, car is still slowing down, rev's dropping, but not nearly so quickly. It's a real on-off thing. Could this be an artifact of my automatic throttle bypass valve being disconnected? Guess I will know nextweek, when I reconnect it.I think that's just an SVX quirk. Mine does this (Stage 1) as well but I believe it's just the difference between "some fuel" and "0 fuel". Playing with the TPS may change how this quirk behaves.

[longassname]

the upgrade price from v5 to v6 isn't that bad. need the link to our website? ;)

would love to...oh, that's right, I only have the 2v5:rolleyes: :p
-Bill

[SVXelerator]

:confused: Did you take my post to mean that there are thousands of vanagons running 2v6 rather than very few svx's running it? I'm not exactly sure how very low volume svx sales equates into a justification for me to pour more of my time and money into rapid product development.

I believe the 2v6 software showcases what my tuning skills can produce through interative improvements resulting from months of my own road testing and the feedback provided by end users. If the ability to more acurately measure high flow air intakes up to twice the mass of stock, performance throttle enrichments, performance timing maps, performance fuel maps, improved compatability with manual transmissions, and the ability to run e85 all provided to a market that only purchases in volumes in the double digits isn't exciting I don't know what would do it. I'm always up for new ideas though. You tell me what you want and if enough people want it too to justify my investing my time and money into making it I'll do it.

Mr. Lan,
Sorry if my comments upset you. I was inferring from your earlier comment that there have been many more Vanagons with 2v6 chips than SVXs with 2v6 chips, thus significant net income in your bank account (based on the premise that your profit on 2v6 kits runs somewhere in the neighborhood of $125 to $600/kit, depending on the option purchased - valid only if one takes it as a given that your up front investment has already been covered) that you could invest in further documented improvements in your EG33-based line. By documented, I'll refer to your web site:


http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SVXelerator/39864.gif

As the figure notes, this is a 2v4-based dyno run (not a 2v5 or 2v6), utilizing a dyno running directly off of the wheel hubs (thus eliminating the parasitic loses resulting from a roller-based dyno (DynoJet) -which the majority of SVX dyno runs have utilized - and producing nominally higher calculated crank Hp/Tq figures if one doesn't correct for the loses). What is striking is that there are no AFR curves to go with the Hp and Tq curves. As someone with your tuning skills knows, the relationship between AFR and Hp/Tq is a significant one. What would be truly exciting would be to see a series of dyno plots that demonstrated the relationship between the AFR you had "tuned" in and the resultant Hp/Tq produced (a potentially strong selling point when it comes to upgrading from your Stage 1 to Stage 2 products).

"...interative improvements resulting from months of my own road testing and the feedback provided by end users." Again, as the skilled tuner you are, you recognized the significant difference between a "street tune" and a "dyno tune" (i.e. "butt dyno" versus "quantified data"). For documented improvements, dyno runs are the gold standard and are the only way the EG33 will ever be able to fully realize its full performance potential. Turning you lose on a DynoJet for 2-3 hours with a series of incrementally different chips and posting the results would be exciting.

Thank you so much for everything you've done for the SVX performance community and I look forward to great things in the future.

[longassname]

I wasn't upset. I was confused at how you could possibly take a low volume of svx sales to equate to my having loads of money and I was trying to give you a reality check which obviously didn't sink in.

Your new post though is a little insulting and missguided. You can't equate a roller dyno to giving lower results due to parasitic losses. They give whatever results they are calibrated to give and as a general rule dynapacs give lower #'s than dynojets. While saying what an experienced tuner I am you've insinuated that the "nominally higher" results "if not corrected for the losses" (your so called parasitic dynojet roller losses) aren't impressive. Those aren't calculated #'s either by the way. They are wheel readings taken with the same car on the same dyno in the same session within minutes of each other with only the software/maf meter change in between. That's how you show real gains.

That plot was just taken from during my development of the z32 maf meter software. As for why there is no afr posted in the plot, as stated in the thread where we discussed the development of the z32 maf meter software the pipe the dyno operator has the wideband installed to wouldn't fit in the tailpipe of the test car. None the less I knew exactly what the afr was as I always do since my car has a wideband and that plot wasn't intended to prove anything to you--it was part of my tuning.

Speeking of my tuning......ie butt dyno vs real dyno...your typical wide open throttle dyno plot only captures a very small portion of the operating conditions I tune for. A dyno is a great tool but no it is not the gold standard one and only way to tune. If you leave the street tuning out then you leave out 95% of the tuning. Say it's 75 degrees the day of the dyno tuning what about when it's 100 degrees or 44 degrees? You have to spend months on the street to get that tuned. There are all kinds of things you never see on the dyno. A few hours on the dyno is great but it's no substitute for "months of itterative improvements" made on the street.

So ya I'm sitting here wondering why you would throw in all those slights about the quality of the information I've shared and the way I tune not being the way you think I should along with thanking me for what I've done and saying you look forward to what I will do--what when I start tuning on a dynojet dyno for 3 hours? Would you like to explain to me the rest of how to retune an svx ecu?

I'd love to have more dyno plots but slighting the last one and the methods used to tune since it aren't going to get you new plots any sooner.

Mr. Lan,
Sorry if my comments upset you.


http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SVXelerator/39864.gif

As the figure notes, this is a 2v4-based dyno run (not a 2v5 or 2v6), utilizing a dyno running directly off of the wheel hubs (thus eliminating the parasitic loses resulting from a roller-based dyno (DynoJet) -which the majority of SVX dyno runs have utilized - and producing nominally higher calculated crank Hp/Tq figures if one doesn't correct for the loses). What is striking is that there are no AFR curves to go with the Hp and Tq curves. As someone with your tuning skills knows, the relationship between AFR and Hp/Tq is a significant one. What would be truly exciting would be to see a series of dyno plots that demonstrated the relationship between the AFR you had "tuned" in and the resultant Hp/Tq produced (a potentially strong selling point when it comes to upgrading from your Stage 1 to Stage 2 products).

"...interative improvements resulting from months of my own road testing and the feedback provided by end users." Again, as the skilled tuner you are, you recognized the significant difference between a "street tune" and a "dyno tune" (i.e. "butt dyno" versus "quantified data"). For documented improvements, dyno runs are the gold standard and are the only way the EG33 will ever be able to fully realize its full performance potential. Turning you lose on a DynoJet for 2-3 hours with a series of incrementally different chips and posting the results would be exciting.

Thank you so much for everything you've done for the SVX performance community and I look forward to great things in the future.

[TomsSVX]

the upgrade price from v5 to v6 isn't that bad. need the link to our website? ;)

Not to pry but wasn't it the deal that he did the baseline 2v5 Dyno runs for you in exchange for the 2v6? Luckily he posted his results for everyone else to see

Tom

[longassname]

No it wasn't.

Not to pry but wasn't it the deal that he did the baseline 2v5 Dyno runs for you in exchange for the 2v6? Luckily he posted his results for everyone else to see

Tom

[Phast SVX]

Jesus could anyone be any less appreciative.

2v6 is an incredible product and my SVX is twice the car it was without it. I have plenty of timing up where i need it in all the load levels(not just a wot) I don't understand why you all choose to bite the hand that feeds, you will end up sucking your own thumb.

phil

[SVXRide]

the upgrade price from v5 to v6 isn't that bad. need the link to our website? ;)

Yeah, but $125 will buy a lot of SS pipe and TIG supplies;) :cool:
-Bill (holding out for v8:D )

[SVXRide]

Not to pry but wasn't it the deal that he did the baseline 2v5 Dyno runs for you in exchange for the 2v6? Luckily he posted his results for everyone else to see

Tom

Tom,
Mike changed his mind because he decided to go another direction with his internal R&D. Life happens;) I've got some other mechanical upgrades I'm working on that I'll be talking with Mike about to make sure they work perfectly with his software:cool:
-Bill

[SVXelerator]

Mr. LAN,
Sorry if my translating didn't come out write on paper, I did not mean to insult or insinuate. Let me try to clear things up below....



I wasn't upset. I was confused at how you could possibly take a low volume of svx sales to equate to my having loads of money and I was trying to give you a reality check which obviously didn't sink in.

Yes, it did...I am only guilty of not communicating well

Your new post though is a little insulting and missguided. You can't equate a roller dyno to giving lower results due to parasitic losses. They give whatever results they are calibrated to give and as a general rule dynapacs give lower #'s than dynojets. While saying what an experienced tuner I am you've insinuated that the "nominally higher" results "if not corrected for the losses" (your so called parasitic dynojet roller losses) aren't impressive. Those aren't calculated #'s either by the way. They are wheel readings taken with the same car on the same dyno in the same session within minutes of each other with only the software/maf meter change in between. That's how you show real gains.

My mistake again...I was trying to compare different approaches to measurement and the loses inherent to them and then calculating crank Hp/Tq given drivetrain loses. Is it fair to say that using SAE corrected dyno figures in all cases is a good thing?

That plot was just taken from during my development of the z32 maf meter software. As for why there is no afr posted in the plot, as stated in the thread where we discussed the development of the z32 maf meter software the pipe the dyno operator has the wideband installed to wouldn't fit in the tailpipe of the test car. None the less I knew exactly what the afr was as I always do since my car has a wideband and that plot wasn't intended to prove anything to you--it was part of my tuning.

I understand. It would still be a good thing to be able to document what the AFR was across the rpm band at which you tested. I have read that the LM-1 wide band (is this what you use?) has a datalogger feature?

Speeking of my tuning......ie butt dyno vs real dyno...your typical wide open throttle dyno plot only captures a very small portion of the operating conditions I tune for. A dyno is a great tool but no it is not the gold standard one and only way to tune. If you leave the street tuning out then you leave out 95% of the tuning. Say it's 75 degrees the day of the dyno tuning what about when it's 100 degrees or 44 degrees? You have to spend months on the street to get that tuned. There are all kinds of things you never see on the dyno. A few hours on the dyno is great but it's no substitute for "months of itterative improvements" made on the street.

Agreed. Would the conclusion be here that if your car does not see a certain temperature range (less than cold day in Florida) that they might have problems? This is where the user community feedback comes into play?

So ya I'm sitting here wondering why you would throw in all those slights about the quality of the information I've shared and the way I tune not being the way you think I should along with thanking me for what I've done and saying you look forward to what I will do--what when I start tuning on a dynojet dyno for 3 hours? Would you like to explain to me the rest of how to retune an svx ecu?

Sorry again for perceived slights....not intended. I meant only to note that showing dyno results for the various "phases" of Stage 1 and Stage 2 chips would be very beneficial. Your approach has obviously yielded positive results. The results of Mr. MikeCG and Mr. TomsSVX efforts noted in their thread are much anticipated.

I'd love to have more dyno plots but slighting the last one and the methods used to tune since it aren't going to get you new plots any sooner.

Again, my apologies. I will give more thought before typing in the future.

[longassname]

fair enough

[longassname]

I'm still anxious to hear from people running 2v6 with manual transmissions.

I'd also like to hear how many people would like to run 370cc injectors.

[longassname]

I almost forgot to ask is there anyone who would be upset about having to use 370cc injectors to be able to run the z32 maf meter?

[Phast SVX]

Im All For The 370cc!!!@!@!@!@!@!@!@

[SVXRide]

I'm still anxious to hear from people running 2v6 with manual transmissions.

I'd also like to hear how many people would like to run 370cc injectors.


Michael,
Are the 370cc injectors the next readily available injectors out there? It would be a big jump from the 240cc (@36psi) stock injectors for us NA folk;). Might be nice to have a 280cc injector that you bump up with an adj FPR...
-Bill
p.s. are you saying that you're looking at changing the 2v software so you couldn't run the stock injectors with the z32 MAF?

[gest24]

Michael,
Are the 370cc injectors the next readily available injectors out there? It would be a big jump from the 240cc (@36psi) stock injectors for us NA folk;). Might be nice to have a 280cc injector that you bump up with an adj FPR...
-Bill
p.s. are you saying that you're looking at changing the 2v software so you couldn't run the stock injectors with the z32 MAF?

Good point Bill... But I'm for the larger injectors! Especially with my new motor I'm going to re-build/upgrade.

Bill, I think you'll be getting some PMs from me with questions about how to squeeze more HP out of the NA motor.

[SVXRide]

Good point Bill... But I'm for the larger injectors! Especially with my new motor I'm going to re-build/upgrade.

Bill, I think you'll be getting some PMs from me with questions about how to squeeze more HP out of the NA motor.


What, and give away all my secrets?;) :p
-Bill ("spare engine" almost down to the bare block....)

[gest24]

What, and give away all my secrets?;) :p
-Bill ("spare engine" almost down to the bare block....)

Not all your secrets Bill... my car will still have to be daily driven. :cool:

[NeedForSpeed]

I'm confused about the two modes for S1, for for reg, one for premium vs. the any grade gasoline mode for S2?

What is the difference in timing maps, function or operation between the three?