Another attempt luckily thwarted

[Noir]

U.K.: Plot to bomb U.S.-bound planes thwarted

LONDON - British authorities said Thursday they thwarted a terrorist plot to simultaneously blow up nine aircraft heading to the U.S. using explosives smuggled in hand luggage, averting what police described as “mass murder on an unimaginable scale.”

Police arrested 21 people, saying they were confident they captured the main suspects in what U.S. officials said was a plot in its final phases that had all the earmarks of an al-Qaida operation. President Bush called it a “stark reminder” of the continued threat to the United States from extremist Muslims.

Little was disclosed about those arrested, although one police official indicated they are British residents. A French official in contact with British authorities described the 21 as originating from predominantly Muslim Pakistan.

Officials raised security to its highest level in Britain — suggesting a terrorist attack might be imminent — and banned carry-on luggage on all flights. Huge crowds backed up at security barriers at London’s Heathrow airport as officials searching for explosives barred nearly every form of liquid outside of baby formula.

U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the terrorists planned to use liquid explosives disguised as beverages and other common products and set them off with detonators disguised as electronic devices.

NBC News’ Robert Windrem has learned each plane would have multiple plotters on board, each carrying a component of the bomb that would then be combined in flight.

Alerts raised worldwide
The extreme measures at a major international aviation hub sent ripples throughout the world. Heathrow was closed to most flights from Europe, and British Airways canceled all its flights between the airport and points in Britain, Europe and Libya. Numerous flights from U.S. cities to Britain were canceled.

Washington raised its threat alert to its highest level for commercial flights from Britain to the United States amid fears the plot had not been completely crushed. The alert for all flights coming or going from the United States was also raised slightly.

Two U.S. counterterrorism officials said the terrorists had targeted United, American and Continental airlines. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

A U.S. intelligence official said the plotters had hoped to target flights to major airports in New York, Washington and California.

British Home Secretary John Reid said the 21 people were arrested in London, its suburbs and Birmingham following a lengthy investigation, including the alleged “main players” in the plot. Searches continued in a number of locations.

The British Broadcasting Corp. said police were evacuating homes in High Wycombe, a town 30 miles northwest of London, near one of the houses being searched. Police refused to confirm the report or to discuss any details of the searches.

‘Stark reminder’
Bush said during a visit to Green Bay, Wis., that the thwarted plot was a “stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists.” Despite increased security since Sept. 11, he warned, “It is a mistake to believe there is no threat to the United States of America.”

While British officials declined to publicly identify the 21 suspects, French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said in Paris that they “appear to be of Pakistani origin.” He did not give a source for his description, but said French officials had been in close contact with British authorities.


Click for related content
Chertoff: Threat ‘suggestive of an al-Qaida plot’
Analysis: Thwarted plot may have been ‘the Big One’
Message Board: Are you afraid to fly?



The suspects were “homegrown,” though it was not immediately clear if they were all British citizens, said a British police official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case. Police were working closely with the South Asian community, the official said.

The suicide bombing assault on London subway trains and a bus on July 7, 2005, was carried out by Muslim extremists who grew up in Britain.

The police official said the plotters intended to simultaneously target multiple planes bound for the United States.

“We think this was an extraordinarily serious plot and we are confident that we’ve prevented an attempt to commit mass murder on an unimaginable scale,” Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson said.

First time red alert status invoked
Prime Minister Tony Blair, vacationing in the Caribbean, briefed Bush on the situation overnight. Blair issued a statement praising the cooperation between the two countries, saying it “underlines the threat we face and our determination to counter it.”

White House spokesman Tony Snow said Bush also had been briefed by his aides while at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, where he has been on vacation.

“We do believe the plot involved flights from the U.K. to the U.S. and was a direct threat to the United States,” Snow said.

While Snow called the plot a serious threat, he assured Americans that “it is safe to travel.”

Chertoff, the homeland security chief, said the plot had the hallmarks of an operation planned by al-Qaida, the terrorist group behind the Sept. 11 attack on the United States.

“It was sophisticated, it had a lot of members and it was international in scope. It was in some respects suggestive of an al-Qaida plot,” Chertoff said, but he cautioned it was too early in the investigation to reach any conclusions.

It is the first time the red alert level in the Homeland Security warning system has been invoked, although there have been brief periods in the past when the orange level was applied. Homeland Security defines the red alert as designating a “severe risk of terrorist attacks.”

“We believe that these arrests (in London) have significantly disrupted the threat, but we cannot be sure that the threat has been entirely eliminated or the plot completely thwarted,” Chertoff said.

He added, however, there was no indication of current plots within the United States.

‘Close to the execution phase’
Chertoff said the plotters were in the final stages of planning. “We were really getting quite close to the execution phase,” he said, adding that it was unclear if the plot was linked to the upcoming fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

A senior U.S. counterterrorism official said authorities believe dozens of people — possibly as many as 50 — were involved in the plot. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

The plan involved airline passengers hiding masked explosives in carry-on luggage, the official said. “They were not yet sitting on an airplane,” but were very close to traveling, the official said, calling the plot “the real deal.”

Passengers in Britain faced delays as tighter security was hastily enforced at the country’s airports and additional measures were put in place for all flights. Laptop computers, mobile phones, iPods, and remote controls were among the items banned from being carried on board.

Liquids, such as hair care products, were also barred on flights in both Britain and the U.S.

In the mid-1990s, officials foiled a plan by terrorist mastermind Ramzi Youssef to blow up 12 Western jetliners simultaneously over the Pacific. The alleged plot involved improvised bombs using liquid hidden in contact lens solution containers.

Traveling woes
Huge lines formed at ticket counters and behind security barriers at Heathrow and other airports in Britain.

Ed Lappen, 55, a businessman from Boston, who was traveling with his wife and daughter to Russia, found himself unable to travel further. “We’re safe, we’re OK,” he said at Heathrow. “Now my daughter is going to get a shopping trip in London.”

Hannah Pillinger, 24, seemed less concerned by the announcement. “Eight hours without an iPod, that’s the most inconvenient thing,” she said, waiting at the Manchester airport.

Most European carriers canceled flights to Heathrow because of the massive delays created after authorities enforced strict new regulations banning most hand baggage.

Tony Douglas, Heathrow’s managing director, said the airport hoped to resume normal operations Friday, but passengers would still face delays and a ban on cabin baggage “for the foreseeable future.”

Security also was stepped up at train stations serving airports across Britain, said British Transport Police spokeswoman Jan O’Neill. At London’s Victoria Station, police patrolled platforms with bomb-sniffing dogs as passengers boarded trains carrying clear plastic bags.

Margaret Gavin, 67, waiting to board a train, said she wasn’t scared. “Why should I change my life because some idiots want to blow something up?” she said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14278216/

[Noir]

damn it, no mp3 players, no laptops, no movie players. :mad:

goddamn terrorists.

[bwb3]

If we cut and run from Iraq and Afganistan they'll leave us alone.
Gene

[Noir]

If we cut and run from Iraq and Afganistan they'll leave us alone.
Gene

true, but i'd rather watch smart bombs blow up their crap on CNN. ;)

i got a running score card on the wall, everytime we hit something i add a point. ;)
everytime those limey bastards bombs something, i add a point to them.

scorecard:

The Good Guys:
129134912

The Bad Guys:
4

[lhopp77]

If we cut and run from Iraq and Afganistan they'll leave us alone.
Gene

Do you need some more wacky weed???? :eek: Remember 9/11 happened BEFORE Iraq OR Afghanistan.

Lee

[lhopp77]

I think this would be a nice time to point out some differences between our individual rights and those in England. To search our houses the police have to go to the judge with a good case of "probable cause" in order to get a warrant. In England--they only have to go to the with a "reasonable suspicion" in order to get a search warrant. Wiretaps are much simpler also. AND--the British intelligence agency (MI5) can operate legally in country while our CIA can only operate overseas. The bottom line in this is that MI5 and Scotland Yard are essentially in bed with each other domestically. While we (prior to Patriot Act) built a wall between the CIA and the FBI.

The advantages of the British system in the war on terror should be obvious.

Lee

[Noir]

I think this would be a nice time to point out some differences between our individual rights and those in England. To search our houses the police have to go to the judge with a good case of "probable cause" in order to get a warrant. In England--they only have to go to the with a "reasonable suspicion" in order to get a search warrant. Wiretaps are much simpler also. AND--the British intelligence agency (MI5) can operate legally in country while our CIA can only operate overseas. The bottom line in this is that MI5 and Scotland Yard are essentially in bed with each other domestically. While we (prior to Patriot Act) built a wall between the CIA and the FBI.

The advantages of the British system in the war on terror should be obvious.

Lee

alot of good their system is. 21 people caught. :p the train incident was homegrown terrorists. all those crazy pakistinis. dunno man, looks like they donned french panties.

[Landshark]

its time for the radical Christians to step up and sneak a nuke into Mecca. :)

[lhopp77]

its time for the radical Christians to step up and sneak a nuke into Mecca. :)

Yep, you have to watch out for those right wing Christian NeoCon suicide bombers!!!! They are everywhere, everywhere, everywhere!!!

Lee

[SilverSpear]

Do you need some more wacky weed???? :eek: Remember 9/11 happened BEFORE Iraq OR Afghanistan.

Lee

Hmmm, did you forget the Jews who are murdering Palestinian civilians with the help of the US??

I told you Muslims are sentimental to one another, an Egyptian civilian gets killed by a Jew, an Indonesian Muslim will revolt and have its revenge from the US which is supporting that Jew.

This concept you will never grasp, it is out of your league...

[Noir]

Hmmm, did you forget the Jews who are murdering Palestinian civilians with the help of the US??

I told you Muslims are sentimental to one another, an Egyptian civilian gets killed by a Jew, an Indonesian Muslim will revolt and have its revenge from the US which is supporting that Jew.

This concept you will never grasp, it is out of your league...

i've been bishing about indonesia for quite some time now....yet no one seems to see the growing problem. oh well...give em 10 years and you'll see the faces of terrorists change.

[DanSVX94]

Hmmm, did you forget the Jews who are murdering Palestinian civilians with the help of the US??

I told you Muslims are sentimental to one another, an Egyptian civilian gets killed by a Jew, an Indonesian Muslim will revolt and have its revenge from the US which is supporting that Jew.

This concept you will never grasp, it is out of your league...

The concept is that you Danny, are a terrorist sympathizer. You believe in the use of terror (mass murder) as a way to blackmail other countries. You come on this board with your anit-US crap, and by your statement above you think it's reasonable for some Indonesian mental patient to kill Americans.

Gee, you must really be sad that your sentimental Muslim pals in England got caught before they could murder a few thousand US citizens -- some of whom may have been related to members on this forum.

But the really sad thing is that every member on this forum would love to see the loss of life in Lebanon end today. But you think it's more important for the Hizbollah to keep this circus going rather than face the humiliation of returning the hostages and disarming.

You're mad that the US won't step in again and rescue the Hizbollah. Well, after the 241 marines were killed, the 3,000 plus of 9/11, and much more the US has about had it.

I guess this is what OBL wanted -- make this a Muslim vs the world thing -- instead of what it really is -- a bunch of homicidal maniacs bent on enslaving all Muslims in a kind of fascist, pseudo-religious, anti-women, prison.

You just better hope that the Muslim terrorists don't create anit-Muslim terrorists.

In closing, I hope the killing stops. I think Lebanese and Israeli deaths are equally saddening. And please take your anti-US, pro-terrorists crap to another web site.

[lhopp77]

The concept is that you Danny, are a terrorist sympathizer. You believe in the use of terror (mass murder) as a way to blackmail other countries. You come on this board with your anit-US crap, and by your statement above you think it's reasonable for some Indonesian mental patient to kill Americans.

Gee, you must really be sad that your sentimental Muslim pals in England got caught before they could murder a few thousand US citizens -- some of whom may have been related to members on this forum.

But the really sad thing is that every member on this forum would love to see the loss of life in Lebanon end today. But you think it's more important for the Hizbollah to keep this circus going rather than face the humiliation of returning the hostages and disarming.

You're mad that the US won't step in again and rescue the Hizbollah. Well, after the 241 marines were killed, the 3,000 plus of 9/11, and much more the US has about had it.

I guess this is what OBL wanted -- make this a Muslim vs the world thing -- instead of what it really is -- a bunch of homicidal maniacs bent on enslaving all Muslims in a kind of fascist, pseudo-religious, anti-women, prison.

You just better hope that the Muslim terrorists don't create anit-Muslim terrorists.

In closing, I hope the killing stops. I think Lebanese and Israeli deaths are equally saddening. And please take your anti-US, pro-terrorists crap to another web site.

You have my vote on this. Just take the battle wing off the SVX and put the car in a safe place.

Lee

[Noir]

The concept is that you Danny, are a terrorist sympathizer. You believe in the use of terror (mass murder) as a way to blackmail other countries. You come on this board with your anit-US crap, and by your statement above you think it's reasonable for some Indonesian mental patient to kill Americans.

Gee, you must really be sad that your sentimental Muslim pals in England got caught before they could murder a few thousand US citizens -- some of whom may have been related to members on this forum.

But the really sad thing is that every member on this forum would love to see the loss of life in Lebanon end today. But you think it's more important for the Hizbollah to keep this circus going rather than face the humiliation of returning the hostages and disarming.

You're mad that the US won't step in again and rescue the Hizbollah. Well, after the 241 marines were killed, the 3,000 plus of 9/11, and much more the US has about had it.

I guess this is what OBL wanted -- make this a Muslim vs the world thing -- instead of what it really is -- a bunch of homicidal maniacs bent on enslaving all Muslims in a kind of fascist, pseudo-religious, anti-women, prison.

You just better hope that the Muslim terrorists don't create anit-Muslim terrorists.

In closing, I hope the killing stops. I think Lebanese and Israeli deaths are equally saddening. And please take your anti-US, pro-terrorists crap to another web site.

You know Dan, if you're not happy with the content of this thread, you're welcome to peruse other threads and websites instead of constantly coming back and/or making threads to draw more attention to this one.

Initially Danny condemned the acts of Hezbollah and still does. His opinion changed the last few weeks toward Hezbollah's retaliation towards Israel.

I have yet to see a 'I hate America and I wanna join the suicide squads against America' comment from him.

If his statements bother you so much, maybe you should go and join www.stormfront.org or www.jtf.org. I'm sure there's lots of people there that'll support you're opinions.

[lhopp77]

You know Dan, if you're not happy with the content of this thread, you're welcome to peruse other threads and websites instead of constantly coming back and/or making threads to draw more attention to this one.

Initially Danny condemned the acts of Hezbollah and still does. His opinion changed the last few weeks toward Hezbollah's retaliation towards Israel.

I have yet to see a 'I hate America and I wanna join the suicide squads against America' comment from him.

If his statements bother you so much, maybe you should go and join www.stormfront.org or www.jtf.org. I'm sure there's lots of people there that'll support you're opinions.

Remember this post by Danny???
It was pretty early on and indicates his true feelings:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

"(this is inside info guys, I have a few friends in the resistance ),

Interested in a job that pays well but it is very risky at the moment and you can loose your
life??? "

That did it for me as far as Danny is concerned.

Lee

[DanSVX94]

I agree with you Lee. And that post pretty well did it for me too.

At the same time, I do hope he stays safe, and I do hope the killing can end ASAP. But I do wish people like Danny could wake up and be angry at the one's who are doing this to his country -- Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Muslim fascists, etc. Stop blaming Israel for defending itself. Stop blaming the US.

It's ironic that the average person in the US holds Lebanese life more sacred than some of the people who live in Lebanon. The Lebanese staged mass protest when Syria assasinated their leader, now they should do the same to kick the real invaders out. The Israelis don't want to be there.

[demonsvx]

What surprises me is we cannot trust anyone anymore. England did stop this terrorist plot with their surveillance techniques but found out it was their own citizens-at least this is what OUR news is telling us. I do not understand why we went to Iraq? Is it to anger more Middle Eastern countries to hate the U.S.? We have been told so many different theories on invading Iraq that I dont know the real reason we are there. If we had the capability in the late 90's to take care of Osama Bin Laden why didnt we? Our country is HATED by a lot of other countries, why? Is it "in Americas best interest" do go here and there saying how great democracy is when our own politicians abuse it here at home? I love this country but "dislike" the practices of our government. It is also hard to vote for someone when most of them are "friends" with large corporations. Was a "terror plot" really avoided or is this just what they want us to believe, a way to control us with fear? What would be the best thing for us all-our governments, factions, and miltia groups to get together away from me and you and let them go at it. Stop deciding what "is good for me, America, and the world" and LEAVE ME ALONE.

[Noir]

Remember this post by Danny???
It was pretty early on and indicates his true feelings:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

"(this is inside info guys, I have a few friends in the resistance ),

Interested in a job that pays well but it is very risky at the moment and you can loose your
life??? "

That did it for me as far as Danny is concerned.

Lee

I'm not that good at reading. How is that anti-America? It's anti-Israel.

Here's his original post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
<Noir sits back and awaits WW3 or regional war in the middle east w/popcorn in hand.>


Haha, you will need more than that my friend, how can the US government sit down and watch its daughter (Israel) getting raped , moreover Bush adores bloodshed


Quote:
Originally Posted by WGJ
I've also already asked if the point of killing innocent Lebanese children is the a priori execution of potential terrorists.
Have you written any articles, obvious or otherwise? And I disagree, it's now not that hard to know what's happening, the Israeli have gone apesh*t and are killing everyone and destroying everything. Problem is, wrong people, wrong villages.
WGJ


Yesterday they kidnapped 3 adult males and a 14 year old goat herder and they claimed they are Hizbullah's army... between those 3 adults, one is Christian (thus never a Hizbullah member), and the other two were normal and ordinary civilians who were fleeing their attacked houses in the middle of the night...

The LBCI TV made an interview with the kid's parents, they are very poor people living a life of tribe in the desert (far around 10-15 miles from any civilisation) and they never heard about Hizbullah or Israel or even Lebanon , their son took the herd up in the mountains and they returned alone after few hours... the mother was crying a lot because it is an only son

The death toll on Hizbullah's soldiers is now 68 (this is inside info guys, I have few friends in the resistance ), all of them are buried publicly, no more are missing or so... I dunno if there are prisoners (well frankly speaking).

P.S: the dead civilians amount to 1000


Quote:
Originally Posted by WGJ
I was attacked at the beach several years ago by a 6'2" 230 lb volleyball player who'd done a 'speedball" (injected heroin and speed) before he came down to the beach. I was 6'1" 250 and sitting in the sand leaning back with my hands behind me, talking to a girl, when this guy walked up, bent over and swung at me. He missed, I reached up and grabbed him by the throat and pulled him down, got him in a judo hold, dislocated his jaw and his right elbow. He was still struggeling and that pissed me off, so I choked him out.


Interested in a job that pays well but it is very risky at the moment and you can loose your life???

Seriously now, glad to hear you kicked his @ss !!!

sounds like he was looking for a bodyguard if you ask me. guess bodyguarding oneself is anti-american.

[lhopp77]

I'm not that good at reading. How is that anti-America? It's anti-Israel.

Here's his original post:

sounds like he was looking for a bodyguard if you ask me. guess bodyguarding oneself is anti-american.

I think you played with the posts a bit. My quote was exactly what he said and it was in context of having friends in Hezbollah. Why would he need a body guard in Lebanon if he was friendly with Hezbollah???? :eek: :eek: :D If you are friends with Hezbollah and a supporter, your are automatically anti-US in my opinion.

Lee

[Noir]

I think you played with the posts a bit. My quote was exactly what he said and it was in context of having friends in Hezbollah. Why would he need a body guard in Lebanon if he was friendly with Hezbollah???? :eek: :eek: :D If you are friends with Hezbollah and a supporter, your are automatically anti-US in my opinion.

Lee

:p

Actually if you look for the post in the other thread, you find that I cut and pasted the exact copy and bolded the comments that you took.

You are right, he is now pro-Hezbollah against Israel. He supports the Hezbollah attacks in retaliation to the Israeli bombings that he finds unjust. The change in his attitude is a result of past few weeks of living in this conflict.

Maybe you didn't notice, initially he wasn't pro-Hezbollah. Danny critized and condemned their actions against Israel.

If you remember, some of the other posts made by Danny were in favor of the US over Hezbollah. He does believe that our media is influenced by Israeli news and he wishes that we didn't support Israel.

I'm sure you could associate 'having friends in the resistance' with global terrorism in your opinion, but as well all know, options are nothing more than a fart in the wind. :p

I'm not as smart as you and your two Jewish friends. I yet again (due to my ignorance) fail to see how for Danny or anyone in Lebanon who wants to hire WGJ as a personal bodyguard to beat down the Israelis like he beat down that nutty volleyball player as being anti-US. :p

[DanSVX94]

:p

You are right, he is now pro-Hezbollah against Israel. HA HA YEAH RIGHT!He supports the Hezbollah attacks in retaliation to the Israeli bombings that he finds unjust. DESPITE THE FACT THAT HEZBOLLAH STARTED ALL THIS. The change in his attitude is a result of past few weeks of living in this conflict.

Maybe you didn't notice, initially he wasn't pro-Hezbollah. Danny critized and condemned their actions against Israel. HA HA!

If you remember, some of the other posts made by Danny were in favor of the US over Hezbollah. He does believe that our media is influenced by Israeli news and he wishes that we didn't support Israel. AND THE 241 DEAD MARINES AND SO MANY OTHERS HAD NO INFLUENCE ON THE MEDIA.

I'm sure you could associate 'having friends in the resistance' with global terrorism in your opinion, but as well all know, options are nothing more than a fart in the wind. :p OPTIONS? LIKE LEATHER AND A MOONROOF? HOW ARE THESE LIKE FARTS?

I'm not as smart as you and your two Jewish friends. AH, HERE WE GO SMOKED OUT ANOTHER ANTI-SEMITE. I yet again (due to my ignorance) NOT A SECRET fail to see how for Danny or anyone in Lebanon who wants to hire WGJ as a personal bodyguard to beat down the Israelis like he beat down that nutty volleyball player as being anti-US. :p

BY THE WAY, I HEAR YOUR ON MEL GIBSON'S CHRISTMAS CARD LIST. BY THE WAY, MY COMMENTS TO YOUR DELUSIONS ARE IN BOLD ABOVE.

[Manarius]

I think this would be a nice time to point out some differences between our individual rights and those in England. To search our houses the police have to go to the judge with a good case of "probable cause" in order to get a warrant. In England--they only have to go to the with a "reasonable suspicion" in order to get a search warrant. Wiretaps are much simpler also. AND--the British intelligence agency (MI5) can operate legally in country while our CIA can only operate overseas. The bottom line in this is that MI5 and Scotland Yard are essentially in bed with each other domestically. While we (prior to Patriot Act) built a wall between the CIA and the FBI.

The advantages of the British system in the war on terror should be obvious.

LeeLee, I think you need to lay off the wacky weed as well. Read the Patriot Act my good man - Police don't need warrants to ransack your house; hell they don't need a warrant to tap your phone and listen to your phone calls either! They just label you as having some part of terrorism and then they can do with your house as they please.

[lhopp77]

Lee, I think you need to lay off the wacky weed as well. Read the Patriot Act my good man - Police don't need warrants to ransack your house; hell they don't need a warrant to tap your phone and listen to your phone calls either! They just label you as having some part of terrorism and then they can do with your house as they please.

As we well know, there were circumstances under which the police could enter or as you say "ransack" your home without a warrant even BEFORE the Patriot Act. Like--for example maybe showing up at your house to talk to you and smelling Meth or even weed while still outside your house would provide the legal basis or "probable cause" that would hold up in court. Or hearing or seeing any apparent criminal activity. Wiretapping is a bit more complicated. While the police may wiretap you and gain information without a warrant---it becomes a different issue whether information gained from such taps could be used as evidence.
The Patriot act does make that easier to do by gaining an approval or warrant after the fact.

Lee

[Manarius]

As we well know, there were circumstances under which the police could enter or as you say "ransack" your home without a warrant even BEFORE the Patriot Act. Like--for example maybe showing up at your house to talk to you and smelling Meth or even weed while still outside your house would provide the legal basis or "probable cause" that would hold up in court. Or hearing or seeing any apparent criminal activity. Wiretapping is a bit more complicated. While the police may wiretap you and gain information without a warrant---it becomes a different issue whether information gained from such taps could be used as evidence.
The Patriot act does make that easier to do by gaining an approval or warrant after the fact.

LeeLee, you and I both know that probable cause is different than saying "Oh, I think he's a terrorist, so let's search his house." - because that's how the Patriot Act works when it comes to search and seizure. If I'm a FBI agent, and I think you're a terrorist, I can search your house and use whatever I find (hell, it doesn't even have to be specific like a real warrant) in a criminal case against you. Then, I'm "supposed" to go back and get a warrant up to 90 days afterwards. That doesn't seem to fair to me.

Just an example: A friend of mine's house was trashed during the night. The police came do the door and knocked it down (because he wasn't fast enough down to the door to open it for him) and they started searching his house for stuff. So, finally he gets downstairs and he's like "WTF are you doing in my house!?" and they're like "We're looking for stuff from (insert name here)'s house." My friend was in shock; "Well, that's the guy next door!!" So, the police trashed his house on a hunch....and they get the wrong house. Thank you Patriot Act for your warrant-less search and seizure. There's a reason we have the warrant system - to prevent stupid things like that from happening.

[lhopp77]

Lee, you and I both know that probable cause is different than saying "Oh, I think he's a terrorist, so let's search his house." - because that's how the Patriot Act works when it comes to search and seizure. If I'm a FBI agent, and I think you're a terrorist, I can search your house and use whatever I find (hell, it doesn't even have to be specific like a real warrant) in a criminal case against you. Then, I'm "supposed" to go back and get a warrant up to 90 days afterwards. That doesn't seem to fair to me.

Just an example: A friend of mine's house was trashed during the night. The police came do the door and knocked it down (because he wasn't fast enough down to the door to open it for him) and they started searching his house for stuff. So, finally he gets downstairs and he's like "WTF are you doing in my house!?" and they're like "We're looking for stuff from (insert name here)'s house." My friend was in shock; "Well, that's the guy next door!!" So, the police trashed his house on a hunch....and they get the wrong house. Thank you Patriot Act for your warrant-less search and seizure. There's a reason we have the warrant system - to prevent stupid things like that from happening.

I will tell you honestly that I have read the Patriot Act and cannot tell much by reading it. Now if I had a complete set of law books so I could actually see which code as been changed, modified, expanded etc----I might be able to tell something. Until then I am dependent on someone elses educated and unbiased explanation of the net effect of the changes. Cases like you just cited happened many times before passage of the Patriot Act, so I am not sure of the relevance of your example.

So, I guess the bottom line is that I won't get into any lengthy argument of the Act since I am not the expert on it. One thing that is clear by reading the Act is the provision that legally lets information be passed amongst Law Enforcement and Intelligence Agencies which was definitely a problem in the past----even in relation to 9/11. That is definitely one provision that I agree with and think the wall that existed prior to the Act impeded investigations to preclude catastrophic events such as 9/11. It is very interesting to note that one of the attorneys that interpreted the wall policy procedures and wrote the policy guidance during the Clinton years---actually sat on the 9/11 Commission. Talk about fox in the hen house. :rolleyes:

Lee

[SilverSpear]

The concept is that you Danny, are a terrorist sympathizer. You believe in the use of terror (mass murder) as a way to blackmail other countries. You come on this board with your anit-US crap, and by your statement above you think it's reasonable for some Indonesian mental patient to kill Americans.

Gee, you must really be sad that your sentimental Muslim pals in England got caught before they could murder a few thousand US citizens -- some of whom may have been related to members on this forum.

But the really sad thing is that every member on this forum would love to see the loss of life in Lebanon end today. But you think it's more important for the Hizbollah to keep this circus going rather than face the humiliation of returning the hostages and disarming.

You're mad that the US won't step in again and rescue the Hizbollah. Well, after the 241 marines were killed, the 3,000 plus of 9/11, and much more the US has about had it.

I guess this is what OBL wanted -- make this a Muslim vs the world thing -- instead of what it really is -- a bunch of homicidal maniacs bent on enslaving all Muslims in a kind of fascist, pseudo-religious, anti-women, prison.

You just better hope that the Muslim terrorists don't create anit-Muslim terrorists.

In closing, I hope the killing stops. I think Lebanese and Israeli deaths are equally saddening. And please take your anti-US, pro-terrorists crap to another web site.

You are a major ignorant to all facts, you are not objective in your thinking and you are dumb in politics (frankly speaking).

And if you are literate enough to read what I said about the marines and 9/11 you would know what I am talking about. You can check again my statements in all posts if you want, but for you and the other old timer I say for the last time:

- Hizbullah did a mistake by killing the marines, I never agreed to that.

- Hizbullah has nothing to do with 9/11, Al Quaeda did (and Al Quaeda was in fact against Hizbullah and threatened many times it will kill its leader Hasan Nasrallah because he doesn't want to invade Israel and wipe out the Jews as he used to say in the mid 80's)

- I said if Iran wants to nuke Israel, the US must do some action about it because the Iranians may fulfill what they are saying.

- I am against what the terrorists were doing in UK, and I was relieved that UK caught them just in time. In the end, I am Christian and I sympathise with Christian countries in the first place before any muslim, especially muslim terrorist like Al Quaeda.

- Hizbullah are fighting a freedom war against Israel. Hizbullah are not bombing themsleves into Jews, unlike Al Quaeda is doing. And newsflash my boy, Al Quaeda are Sunnis and Hizbullah's are Shiites, Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other in Iraq.

I am not with Al Quaeda, neither Iran, and not with any Muslim. If Hizbullah were Christians, I would take their side for the sole purpose they are defending my country and sustaining heavy damage to israelis.

If you are not man enough to face real political facts, you should stick with "not-exactly SVX" excluding the political freedom.

[SilverSpear]

Remember this post by Danny???
It was pretty early on and indicates his true feelings:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

"(this is inside info guys, I have a few friends in the resistance ),

Interested in a job that pays well but it is very risky at the moment and you can loose your
life??? "

That did it for me as far as Danny is concerned.

Lee

If you were a good reader you will remember this Mroldtimerwhowastedhislifeinvain:

An important note I should mention: The US, Europe and all the world is requesting the destruction of Hizbullah. The latter cannot be terminated, because all Shiites are Hizbullah or Amal. For the Jews to destroy them, they should destroy 1.5 million muslim (men, women and kids) in Lebanon.

It's not like we are living in states here, one Sunni state, one Shiite state and one Christian state, it is normal to have Shiite friends....

[SilverSpear]

I think you played with the posts a bit. My quote was exactly what he said and it was in context of having friends in Hezbollah. Why would he need a body guard in Lebanon if he was friendly with Hezbollah???? :eek: :eek: :D If you are friends with Hezbollah and a supporter, your are automatically anti-US in my opinion.

Lee

I think I said that I worked for a cell phone company in Lebanon (one of only existing two). It is very natural to meet new people from Lebanon and all over the world. It is very natural to meet Shiites who turn out to be working for Hizbullah... as I stated in my previous post.

As you guys divide yourself between Black/White in the States, our division became now Lebanese Forces/Tayyar el Watani/Future/Hizbullah/Amal/Ichtirakis... etc...

This is our way of life

[Manarius]

- Hizbullah are fighting a freedom war against Israel. Hizbullah are not bombing themsleves into Jews, unlike Al Quaeda is doing. And newsflash my boy, Al Quaeda are Sunnis and Hizbullah's are Shiites, Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other in Iraq.Too bad Hezbollah is nothing but a bunch of terrorists with funding from Iran.

[Duckie]

I love how before 9/11 the word terrorist was reserved for someone trying to cause terror, not for someone defending themselves(even if they started it). Now the word terrorist and terrorism is being thrown around like it is nothing. The fact that before 9/11 I could watch CNN and never hear that word in a day, and then one year after 9/11 I could count it being said over 200 times speaks volumes to me. Our media has done a wonderful job brainwashing folks into making another Witch Trials. Don't like what a country is doing to defend themselves? Are they resisting forced change? OBVIOUSLY, they are terrorists and for world peace we need to kill them.

Over the years we have given Israel more money than ANY other country, in the year 2005 alone we gave over 2.2 billion dollars to them. Do we want them to win, of course we do, we have time and money invested there. Do I agree with Hezbollah and the way they have conducted themselves in the past? No. Do I agree with what Israel is doing? A resounding no. In this case I am forced to choose the lesser of two evils, I would be with Danny on this one and support the "terrorists" at least until the conflict was over. Both sides have EQUAL power in ending the war as well. So stop with the bull**** that Hezbollah started it, you sound like your three. At the point when people started dying it no longer mattered WHO started it, just that it started.

And before you go and label me as anti-US and a terrorist/terrorist supporter...know this: I am already classified as such by the government since I have volunteered in the past to help Food Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs is considered to be a terrorist orginization despite the fact that nowadays we do little more than feed the homeless 2 days a week. *shrugs* Sounds like a staunch case of terrorism to me.

[RSVX]

And before you go and label me as anti-US and a terrorist/terrorist supporter...know this: I am already classified as such by the government since I have volunteered in the past to help Food Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs is considered to be a terrorist orginization despite the fact that nowadays we do little more than feed the homeless 2 days a week. *shrugs* Sounds like a staunch case of terrorism to me.

But, rightfuly so! Here, let me explain.

These so called homeless are happy in their lives (to some extent) and you run in there and terrorize them by feeding them. They are not used to being fed, or cared for. Therefore you are disrupting their way of life.

OK, so it was one hell of a reach, but it was fun! :D :D

Disclaimer: The above is a joke, any attempt to construe it as anything other than a joke, is your own stupid @ss fault.

[Noir]

BY THE WAY, I HEAR YOUR ON MEL GIBSON'S CHRISTMAS CARD LIST. BY THE WAY, MY COMMENTS TO YOUR DELUSIONS ARE IN BOLD ABOVE.

You amuse me Dan. Thanks for catching my typo, without your clarification, my point would not have been made. :)

I would have to say that we're all a little delusional at times. Heck, I would wager that you still think it's 1983 with 'Billy Jean' running on repeat in your cassette deck.

You're right, Danny can't be supporting a Hezbollah offensive against Israel and like US at the same time. I mean that would be like selling arms to two parties involved in a conflict and we all know that won't ever happen.

My mistake Dan, maybe you could explain what these statements mean since you're on top of it all:

Hisbullah is not righful of what he did by starting this parade (launching the Katiusha's to Israel), and Israel has no right to attack the infrastructure and civilians... They haven't so far killed but only one soldier from Hisbullah!!! --post 15 from We Are Under Attack!

I am really pissed!!!!!!!!!! all the high tech weapons the israeli have and they couldn't kill but only 2 members of Hizbullah!! 80% of the other 75 people dead are civilian KIDS !!! I saw incinerated babies on TV !!

I say it again, i was against Hizbullah starting the katyuchas on Israel, but seeing what the israelis are attacking and whom they are attacking here (civilians, airports, marine ports, gas stations, bridges...) I hope Hasan Nasrallah and hizbullah kick the SH!t out of the JEWS!!
Sorry guys I had to say it, when you see what I am seeing here, you will understand what I am saying... --post 23 from We Are Under Attack!

I said this from the beginning Lee, what Hizbullah did was provocative and not wise, I am against what they did, they shouldn't have started this war!!!
Syria and Iran never said that (as far as I know), one thing is sure is that they are helping Hizbullah in this war through supplies.

Our government is very weak, their only concern is to fill their pockets and nothing else. --post 74 from We Are Under Attack!

Dang Dan, I misread all of those posts. Danny was not only the supporter, he was the mastermind of this whole thing. He probably was one guys who abducted the two Israelis and was pushing the 'Fire Missiles at Israel' buttons. For that I apologize Dan. :)

I'm sure I could find posts that show that Danny thinks that our media is focused on Israel's angle as well as the posts where Lee thinks our news reporting is pure and unbiased and if there is some slant to the news, that would be the 'Bleeding-heart Liberal' slant. :eek:

And for my last delusional comment, I didn't know addressing Lee and his only 2 Jewish friends was anti-Semitic. I think you should submit that new definition to Webster or Comptons.



------------one line from a PM sent by Lee/Ihopp77 to oab_au--------------
No, I am not Jewish and only personally know 2 Jews--that I know of for sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--post 352 from We Are Under Attack!


So if I'm on Mel Gibson's Christmas List, then you must be on Chaim B. Pesach's Hanukah gift exchange list. What did you get last year? Socks?

:D :D :D

[lhopp77]

And for my last delusional comment, I didn't know addressing Lee and his only 2 Jewish friends was anti-Semitic. I think you should submit that new definition to Webster or Comptons.



It amuses me that so much has been made about my statement concerning knowing "only 2 Jews" for sure. I also fail to understand why it has been quoted so many times and interpreted in so many different ways.

As the quote indicates--I said that I only knew 2 for sure and did not say they were friends. My point was that I don't know if they are Jewish simply by looking at them. My other point is that I don't worry about their nationality or religion---I accept them for what they are at face value. I probably know or have known many many Jews to include some friends, but unless someone says---I am Jewish or their name is Feinstein or however you spell it---I don't know they are Jewish and could care less one way or the other.

Now if I had said that I only knew 2 African Americans or 2 Hispanics---that says something else since racial origin is obvious. That could obviously indicate the potential for racism.

What if said I only knew 2 people of Irish descent. It that racist or could it be simply that nationality is not a concern and not visibly obvious?

I just had to say it.

Lee

[DanSVX94]

You amuse me Dan. :D :D :D

As long as I amuse you that's something positive in all this.

By attacking Israel for 50 or so years, the surrounding hostile countries have made Israel fight back the way it does. So, for any of these countries to complain is pretty stupid. These countries goal is to wipe Israel out and kill every person in Israel. Israel cannot buy peace with land.

The money and effort spent on all this fighting, and the cost in life is staggering.

Until countries like Lebannon and others kick out the Islamo fascists and decide to live peacefully, this stuff will go on and on with nothing but further horror.

[Noir]

It amuses me that so much has been made about my statement concerning knowing "only 2 Jews" for sure. I also fail to understand why it has been quoted so many times and interpreted in so many different ways.

As the quote indicates--I said that I only knew 2 for sure and did not say they were friends. My point was that I don't know if they are Jewish simply by looking at them. My other point is that I don't worry about their nationality or religion---I accept them for what they are at face value. I probably know or have known many many Jews to include some friends, but unless someone says---I am Jewish or their name is Feinstein or however you spell it---I don't know they are Jewish and could care less one way or the other.

Now if I had said that I only knew 2 African Americans or 2 Hispanics---that says something else since racial origin is obvious. That could obviously indicate the potential for racism.

What if said I only knew 2 people of Irish descent. It that racist or could it be simply that nationality is not a concern and not visibly obvious?

I just had to say it.

Lee

I know, how am I anti-Semetic for posting that comment? I think it's from the Wacky Weed garnish added for flavor. :p

[lhopp77]

By attacking Israel for 50 or so years, the surrounding hostile countries have made Israel fight back the way it does. So, for any of these countries to complain is pretty stupid. These countries goal is to wipe Israel out and kill every person in Israel. Israel cannot buy peace with land.

The money and effort spent on all this fighting, and the cost in life is staggering.

Until countries like Lebannon and others kick out the Islamo fascists and decide to live peacefully, this stuff will go on and on with nothing but further horror.

I agree and what has upset me on here is that some do not realize how critical it is for Israel's very existence to be aggressive and NOT show any weakness. Some are not anti-semetic in their lack of support and even criticism of Israel's level of response, but simply uninformed of the history and need to operate for a superior strength position because of the sheer numbers of the enemy in the region.

"Noir---I know, how am I anti-Semetic for posting that comment? I think it's from the Wacky Weed garnish added for flavor."

I don't know that I have called anyone anti-Semetic except Danny and not even sure that I called him that----it is so obvious in his case that you don't even need to state it again. I have definitely used the terms of "anti-US or anti-American" in several instances and would not hesitate to use them again.

Lee

[SilverSpear]

You're right, Danny can't be supporting a Hezbollah offensive against Israel and like US at the same time. I mean that would be like selling arms to two parties involved in a conflict and we all know that won't ever happen.



Ok. The Jewish doctrine same as the Muslim is extremist as the way they consider themselves as superior to others. This is why I stated that I hate all Jews whereas I only hate your government (I liked it at one point in time when they helped driving the Syrians out) and not you people...

Some important posts to know as I was browsing the political forum:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33467&page=6
Post 76

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32036&page=2
Posts 19 and 27.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32036&page=4
Post 47

[SilverSpear]

By attacking Israel for 50 or so years, the surrounding hostile countries have made Israel fight back the way it does. So, for any of these countries to complain is pretty stupid. These countries goal is to wipe Israel out and kill every person in Israel. Israel cannot buy peace with land.


Hmmm, why stating exactly "50 years" ?? What was Israel before that?

Until countries like Lebannon and others kick out the Islamo fascists and decide to live peacefully, this stuff will go on and on with nothing but further horror.

As I said before, we as Christians hate Muslims and Jews. But between both, I prefer Muslims over Jews for the sole purpose that Muslims are men of their word, what they state, they do. One simple example (and sorry for taken this one even though I hate it), you all know that when a Muslim terrorist go on TV and state he will have revenge on this people and on that people, you all witness that he do it right?? Well muslims are not always related to killing and stuff. They have great hospitality and they welcome their guests in the most generous manner possible. But do not dishonor them by taking something they belong or stab them in the back...

The Jews are never unpredictable and take the simplest causes to make a fuss out of it...

But deep in my heart and in our hearts as Lebanese Christians, if we can drive all muslims out of Lebanon (sunni and shiites) and claim Lebanon as a Christian country alike Israel as a Jew country, I wouldn't mind at all ;)

[SilverSpear]

I agree and what has upset me on here is that some do not realize how critical it is for Israel's very existence to be aggressive and NOT show any weakness. Some are not anti-semetic in their lack of support and even criticism of Israel's level of response, but simply uninformed of the history and need to operate for a superior strength position because of the sheer numbers of the enemy in the region.

"Noir---I know, how am I anti-Semetic for posting that comment? I think it's from the Wacky Weed garnish added for flavor."

I don't know that I have called anyone anti-Semetic except Danny and not even sure that I called him that----it is so obvious in his case that you don't even need to state it again. I have definitely used the terms of "anti-US or anti-American" in several instances and would not hesitate to use them again.

Lee

I am anti-semetic in the first place, anti-muslim in the second place and anti-US government in the third place, but never anti-US as it is. (the muslims are tho)

Sorry guys, but your government's policy towards Lebanon was not in our country's favor, I have to stick to my origin in this...

Do you all know that the only weapons that are being allowed to the Lebanese government are Rio trucks, old willys and Jeep Pickups?? Some M-16's also. Our tanks are very old dated 1945 (M45) and we don't have a lot of them :( and the US never allows us to buy newer ones...

[DanSVX94]

This is why I stated that I hate all Jews whereas I only hate your government (I liked it at one point in time when they helped driving the Syrians out) and not you people...

Wow, what happened? I guess your racist camouflage suit was at the cleaners when you posted this. :D

By the way, speaking of camouflage, there are US citizens who are Jewish on this site and they of course think you're really swell.

So, when Islamo-fascists kill 241 marines, or when 3,000 get killed in 9/11 etc you think that's okay because it's really just an attack on the US government.

Your signature supports terrorism.

I've met Muslims and Jews, some I liked, some I didn't, some had power and money, and some didn't.

Good luck with your Hezbollah house guests.

Good luck with your Syrian and Iranian neighbors.

[b3lha]

Your signature supports terrorism.


Whether or not you agree with the sentiment, Danny's signature

"Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Stop Attacking Muslim Countries !!!"

does not amount to support for Terrorism.

From what I have read, Danny certainly doesn't support Al-Qaeda or the 9/11 attacks. He has enthusisatically supported Hisbullah, and who can blame him. I'd support them if they were the only people defending my home and family from an invading army.

[RSVX]

I'd support them if they were the only people defending my home and family from an invading army.

Even if those same people where the ones suicide bombing civillian areas, as well as launching unguided rockets at whatever they can?

[b3lha]

Even if those same people where the ones suicide bombing civillian areas, as well as launching unguided rockets at whatever they can?

Yeah, you're right. In that case I'd rather the invaders drove their tanks into town, blew up my house and killed all my family.:rolleyes:

[lhopp77]

Yeah, you're right. In that case I'd rather the invaders drove their tanks into town, blew up my house and killed all my family.:rolleyes:

Your selective memory option is working great. Now how about a little reality---there would have been NO INVADERS if the terrorists had not killed and captured soldiers in another sovereign country and indiscriminately fired rockets at civilian areas. I personally think I would blame the people that started it. :D

[RSVX]

Yeah, you're right. In that case I'd rather the invaders drove their tanks into town, blew up my house and killed all my family.:rolleyes:

Ah, but you forgot to mention that your house guests were part of this *resistance*.

[b3lha]

Your selective memory option is working great. Now how about a little reality---there would have been NO INVADERS if the terrorists had not killed and captured soldiers in another sovereign country and indiscriminately fired rockets at civilian areas. I personally think I would blame the people that started it. :D

Reality is a rather subjective thing in this forum. Danny is the only guy here who knows what really happened in Lebanon. The rest of us only know what the news agencies see fit to spin for us.

The two points of my original post were that

1) Danny's signature is not indicative of support for terrorism. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
2) I can understand why Danny was supportive of Hisbullah and this should not be taken as an indicator that he supports all terrorists.

If you can't understand it then maybe you need to try a little harder.

[RSVX]

Reality is a rather subjective thing in this forum. Danny is the only guy here who knows what really happened in Lebanon. The rest of us only know what the news agencies see fit to spin for us.

Most of what I have seen Danny write about, is what he has seen on his country's news...

so how is that for spin?

[oab_au]

Your selective memory option is working great. Now how about a little reality---there would have been NO INVADERS if the terrorists had not killed and captured soldiers in another sovereign country and indiscriminately fired rockets at civilian areas. I personally think I would blame the people that started it. :D

On that reasoning then, when would you expect the Palestinians to invade Israel?:rolleyes:

Harvey.;)

[Electrophil]

You are all a bunch of tree hugging, long haired hippees with smelly armpits. You all secretly drive 78 Trans Am's converted to solar while drinking bottled water and delicately eating organic sushi at metrosexual bars under a false name.

Lee is an upper side middle aged, and overpaid man that hangs out on his porch shaking his cane at skateboarders, as he plots a way to get all the tree huggers to commit massive suicide on Fox news.

He keeps a picture of O'Reilly next to his bed in a US Flag style picture frame. He also keeps a water proof pin up of Ann Coulter in his shower. We love him only for the contrast he brings to the site. We all have plans to steal his SVX collection and ransom them back in exchange for his vote to a democratic presidential candidate.... as soon as we figure out how to get past the land mine field he has around his property. Neutralizing his cane is another challenge to overcome.

El Revolutionary!!!!!! Down with the infidels!!!

[Electrophil]

Invasion of Canada and the overthrow of their evil dictatorship is our only means of survival. We should start with Nova Scotia to damage their booming trinket market.

El Revolutionary!! Viva Amerika!!

[lhopp77]

On that reasoning then, when would you expect the Palestinians to invade Israel?:rolleyes:

Harvey.;)

Why do all of you foreigners have only selective memory? You seem to forget that the initial hostile act was by Hamas firing rockets into Israel from Gaza and kidnapping a IDF soldier and a civilian. Israel retaliated by selective strikes and demanded return of the soldier. Hamas killed the civilian. As this activity was heating up---Hezbollah made their stupid mistake of attacking Israel. Hamas has been sporadically firing rockets into Israel from Gaza for a long time, but the prisoners were a big escalation..

Did you forget this????? or just chose not to remember it??????? Or could it be that you are just ill informed?????

Lee

[lhopp77]

You are all a bunch of tree hugging, long haired hippees with smelly armpits. You all secretly drive 78 Trans Am's converted to solar while drinking bottled water and delicately eating organic sushi at metrosexual bars under a false name.

Lee is an upper side middle aged, and overpaid man that hangs out on his porch shaking his cane at skateboarders, as he plots a way to get all the tree huggers to commit massive suicide on Fox news.

He keeps a picture of O'Reilly next to his bed in a US Flag style picture frame. He also keeps a water proof pin up of Ann Coulter in his shower. We love him only for the contrast he brings to the site. We all have plans to steal his SVX collection and ransom them back in exchange for his vote to a democratic presidential candidate.... as soon as we figure out how to get past the land mine field he has around his property. Neutralizing his cane is another challenge to overcome.

I would think I was having a nightmare if I saw a solar powered TA. The TA is bad enough.

And.....the last time I checked I am not over paid. Not sure that is possible. ;) For your information, I really don't care for O'Reilly personally even though I admit I frequently watch him. Now Coulter is a refreshing counter to the many far left liberals. I don't always agree with her and she definitely goes a bit far sometimes, but.......still refreshing to see how she drives the liberals crazeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. :)

For your info---the landmines are bouncing betties and claymores. My dogs are trained to stay clear of them----so guess you just need to watch the dogs. Well, maybe. The cane is actually a single shot 12 ga loaded with 00 shot. And don't forget the cameras that cover all approaches. My arsenal includes at least a dozen guns and thousands of rounds of ammo. Oh, yes, I am an excellent marksman. Which button do you want me to hit?? :) Ever see the size hole a 300 Ultra Mag makes particularly on exit-------not good.

Bring on them whatever it is that wears the funny clothes. :D

Now go to sleep and quit harassing me. :p

Lee

[SilverSpear]

Wow, what happened? I guess your racist camouflage suit was at the cleaners when you posted this. :D

By the way, speaking of camouflage, there are US citizens who are Jewish on this site and they of course think you're really swell.

So, when Islamo-fascists kill 241 marines, or when 3,000 get killed in 9/11 etc you think that's okay because it's really just an attack on the US government.

Your signature supports terrorism.

I've met Muslims and Jews, some I liked, some I didn't, some had power and money, and some didn't.

Good luck with your Hezbollah house guests.

Good luck with your Syrian and Iranian neighbors.

Stop following your feelings in this, you don't know what is like to have a country scr*wing yours all the time without being able to defend yourself.

I am proud to have the 2006 Hizbullah defending my country. They are 100% Lebanese and never guests, and the time they hand down their weapons I will surely leave and never come back (because we would be exposed totally to Israel.)

I say it again, we want no Israelis, no Syrians and no Iranians around. Iranians have nothing to do with Hizbullah except for funding and arming them. Hizbullah never takes orders from Iran, and if anyone has any proof otherwise pls be free to post it.

[SilverSpear]

Whether or not you agree with the sentiment, Danny's signature

"Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Stop Attacking Muslim Countries !!!"

does not amount to support for Terrorism.

From what I have read, Danny certainly doesn't support Al-Qaeda or the 9/11 attacks. He has enthusisatically supported Hisbullah, and who can blame him. I'd support them if they were the only people defending my home and family from an invading army.

Sure not I never support Al-Quaeda or 9/11 attacks or Syria or Iran. Can you see this pic below? This is us celebrating at the time 1.5 million Lebanese revolted asking Syria out.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SilverSpear/25269.JPG

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SilverSpear/37565.jpg

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SilverSpear/37564.jpg

Whether you like it or not, we are patriotic people and we welcome anyone who supports us against any invador

[SilverSpear]

Your selective memory option is working great. Now how about a little reality---there would have been NO INVADERS if the terrorists had not killed and captured soldiers in another sovereign country and indiscriminately fired rockets at civilian areas. I personally think I would blame the people that started it. :D

This is the real version of the Truth.
Hizbullah captured two soldiers first (thinking they would exchange them with the Lebanese prisoners that Israel kept for 30 years just because they fought Israeli invadors in 1978). Then an Israeli Humvy crossed the border into Lebanon thinking they can go for a ride here, of course Hizbullah will retaliate. They RPG'd the car and the riders were killed. Then Israel started the invasion and until then Hizbullah started throwing rockets.

Hizbullah's intention was to capture the soldiers first, and if you cannot acknowledge the fact that we have Lebanese people in Israel, then you know nothing about human rights and you are the most racist human alive (well Dan is included also).

Objective thinking people..

Most of what I have seen Danny write about, is what he has seen on his country's news...

so how is that for spin?

Chris, are you really reading accurately all my posts? Do you think I don't get CNN and BBC here???


Lee is an upper side middle aged, and overpaid man that hangs out on his porch shaking his cane at skateboarders, as he plots a way to get all the tree huggers to commit massive suicide on Fox news.


... And Danny is a quarter aged man, from the common people who are really committed for his cause either it is for his suby (NO PORCHES, NO PORCHES...) and for his country :D :D :D

hahahahaha, nice one Rob :p

Why do all of you foreigners have only selective memory? You seem to forget that the initial hostile act was by Hamas firing rockets into Israel from Gaza and kidnapping a IDF soldier and a civilian. Israel retaliated by selective strikes and demanded return of the soldier. Hamas killed the civilian. As this activity was heating up---Hezbollah made their stupid mistake of attacking Israel. Hamas has been sporadically firing rockets into Israel from Gaza for a long time, but the prisoners were a big escalation..

Did you forget this????? or just chose not to remember it??????? Or could it be that you are just ill informed?????

Lee

Man you are racist towards Arabs, I got you now... Do you know that the IDF has 10,000 Palestinian prisoners in their Jails?? and they have kidnapped a deputy in the Palestinian Government? Is that civilized in your opinion???

You know what I think? you are the one watching local media only...

[RSVX]

Chris, are you really reading accurately all my posts? Do you think I don't get CNN and BBC here???

Yes,
But you are weighing CNN/BBC against your country's news. Which is wise. However, you talk about how our news is biased and you dont beleive a word of it. I would have to assume that the majority of opposers (of your freedom fighters) beleive that YOUR news is biased, and that is what I see you basing your judgements on.

Basically, if we are in a sence, both right... then the truth, as usual lies somewhere in the middle. But neither side sees it that way. Its just two extremests duking it out based on mis-information on BOTH sides.

So, we say everyone is hezbolla, and you say they are all civillians.

The actual truth is probably a mix of the above.

[SilverSpear]

Yes,
But you are weighing CNN/BBC against your country's news. Which is wise. However, you talk about how our news is biased and you dont beleive a word of it. I would have to assume that the majority of opposers (of your freedom fighters) beleive that YOUR news is biased, and that is what I see you basing your judgements on.

Basically, if we are in a sence, both right... then the truth, as usual lies somewhere in the middle. But neither side sees it that way. Its just two extremests duking it out based on mis-information on BOTH sides.

So, we say everyone is hezbolla, and you say they are all civillians.

The actual truth is probably a mix of the above.

Ok let me tell you how biased your media is??? CNN and BBC did report about Hassan Nasrallah's last footage he did 3 days ago, and they translated some of the important points he mentioned except the Most Important one:

He will pay between 20K $ for each family whose house was destroyed from the Israeli invasion (there are 15000 completely destroyed houses) just for them to be able to rent an apartment for one year and buy furniture for it. In the meantime he will be building back their houses from Hizbullah's own funding (Iran).

As for the houses which can be restored, he will also fix them all, a project which will take near a year and which the government cannot be trusted with.

CNN and BBC mentioned SH!T about that, I watched them both...

What do you think about that???

P.S: Work is in process as we speak.
P.P.S: I never post rubbish, that Joke was made by people, not by animals... The Jews are like that, PERIOD.

[b3lha]

Danny, I have a question. Just to ensure there is no misunderstanding. When you refer to "the jews" in postings like these:

I am anti-semetic in the first place, anti-muslim in the second place and anti-US government in the third place, but never anti-US as it is. (the muslims are tho)

Ok. The Jewish doctrine same as the Muslim is extremist as the way they consider themselves as superior to others. This is why I stated that I hate all Jews whereas I only hate your government (I liked it at one point in time when they helped driving the Syrians out) and not you people...

Are you only talking about the Jews who live in Isreal, or do you also include the people of Jewish descent that live peacefully in the USA and other parts of the world? I have been assuming that you are talking about the Isreali Jews, but judging from some people's responses, I'm not sure everybody is reading it that way.

[RSVX]

Ok let me tell you how biased your media is??? CNN and BBC did report about Hassan Nasrallah's last footage he did 3 days ago, and they translated some of the important points he mentioned except the Most Important one:

He will pay between 20K $ for each family whose house was destroyed from the Israeli invasion (there are 15000 completely destroyed houses) just for them to be able to rent an apartment for one year and buy furniture for it. In the meantime he will be building back their houses from Hizbullah's own funding (Iran).

As for the houses which can be restored, he will also fix them all, a project which will take near a year and which the government cannot be trusted with.

CNN and BBC mentioned SH!T about that, I watched them both...

What do you think about that???

P.S: Work is in process as we speak.
P.P.S: I never post rubbish, that Joke was made by people, not by animals... The Jews are like that, PERIOD.

OK, I never claimed that our media was not biased... In fact I stated that BOTH sides were spouting mis-information...

And oh yeah... I was reading MSNBC this morning and saw that part of the translation. Let me link you since you think we dont know about it. You see I dont stick to one source of news... I read as many as I can and try to pull the truth out of all of the sources. So, since you think our media is so baltantly biased agaisnt you, then why would the below even be mentioned?

Hezbollah’s top official in south Lebanon hinted that the guerrillas would not disarm or withdraw but would keep its weapons out of sight. Hezbollah will have “no visible military presence,” Sheik Nabil Kaouk told reporters in the southern port city of Tyre.

Hezbollah has used charity work and social welfare programs financed by Iran to win wide support throughout Lebanon.

It continued that tradition Wednesday, saying it would help tens of thousands of Lebanese reconstruct homes that were destroyed by Israel, a move likely to deepen support among Shiites, who make up about 35 percent of Lebanon’s 4 million people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14369995/
Page 2 is where this came from.

And LOOK! More Biased US reports of the same, that you claim is not being reported!!

Hezbollah will rebuild all the houses and apartments destroyed in southern Lebanon, and give the displaced money to pay rent for a year, Ghassan Darwish, a spokesman for the group, said. Donations are coming from around the world to finance reconstruction, Darwish said, including contributions from governments and non-governmental organizations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFXq3jHXiYfY&refer=home


My point stands, you implicitly trust your media without giving ours a second thought... Like I said... the truth lies in the middle.

I would STILL like to see a response to my post in the other thread.

[Duckie]

You know how you know you have made a really good post? It's when no one respondes to it *sheepish grin*

[lhopp77]

You know how you know you have made a really good post? It's when no one respondes to it *sheepish grin*

You are very wrong. Normally there is a silence after a totally BS post like the one Danny made.

Danny Says:
"Ok let me tell you how biased your media is??? CNN and BBC did report about Hassan Nasrallah's last footage he did 3 days ago, and they translated some of the important points he mentioned except the Most Important one:

He will pay between 20K $ for each family whose house was destroyed from the Israeli invasion (there are 15000 completely destroyed houses) just for them to be able to rent an apartment for one year and buy furniture for it. In the meantime he will be building back their houses from Hizbullah's own funding (Iran)."

He says we did not receive this information because our news media is biased. Just read the attached article that appears in our small paper here in New Mexico. So he is putting out BS as usual.

Lee

[SilverSpear]

Yes,
But you are weighing CNN/BBC against your country's news. Which is wise. However, you talk about how our news is biased and you dont beleive a word of it. I would have to assume that the majority of opposers (of your freedom fighters) beleive that YOUR news is biased, and that is what I see you basing your judgements on.

Basically, if we are in a sence, both right... then the truth, as usual lies somewhere in the middle. But neither side sees it that way. Its just two extremests duking it out based on mis-information on BOTH sides.

So, we say everyone is hezbolla, and you say they are all civillians.

The actual truth is probably a mix of the above.

That is right, you should watch all TV stations and get a conclusion about what is right. But the thing is, our media is backed by footages and pictures, that what lacks in CNN and BBC. As people say, a picture is worth a million words.

As for Hizbullah, I said they are Resistance, and in the concept of resistance you all know that during war, they put the military cloth and during peace they live their normal civilian life.

But that doesn't mean that during war, they will fight from their own houses and casue their families and loved ones be killed that way... Would you do it?

[SilverSpear]

Danny, I have a question. Just to ensure there is no misunderstanding. When you refer to "the jews" in postings like these:

Are you only talking about the Jews who live in Isreal, or do you also include the people of Jewish descent that live peacefully in the USA and other parts of the world? I have been assuming that you are talking about the Isreali Jews, but judging from some people's responses, I'm not sure everybody is reading it that way.

I am talking about the Jew doctrine. I can see a lot of similarities between the muslims and jews in the sense they are deep into their religion and follow the teachings word by word. We Christians don't do that...

You are very wrong. Normally there is a silence after a totally BS post like the one Danny made.

Danny Says:
"Ok let me tell you how biased your media is??? CNN and BBC did report about Hassan Nasrallah's last footage he did 3 days ago, and they translated some of the important points he mentioned except the Most Important one:

He will pay between 20K $ for each family whose house was destroyed from the Israeli invasion (there are 15000 completely destroyed houses) just for them to be able to rent an apartment for one year and buy furniture for it. In the meantime he will be building back their houses from Hizbullah's own funding (Iran)."

He says we did not receive this information because our news media is biased. Just read the attached article that appears in our small paper here in New Mexico. So he is putting out BS as usual.

Lee

Lee, is that CNN or BBC I see? NONE... It's good that it is posted somewhere tho :D

[Electrophil]

I am actually glad to see Hezbollah coming forward to help rebuild. $300 Million is a good start.

And it isn't going to be easy disbursing that kind of cash, and they know it. Huge organizations that are designed for this kind of thing struggle. So if they pull it off, my hat is off to them... regardless of my personal feelings toward the group. As for the money coming from Iran? Glad to hear it. They need to throw in another few billion to rebuild the infrastructure while they are at it. Like power plants, sewage treatment, water distribution, etc. If anyone got a benefit from this, the Iranians did. They were the ones in the hotseat at the time, and this diverted the world's attention from them, and will keep that attention diverted for a good period forward.

Hint.... hint..... Wheels turning... motives... "attacked who without government approval?? Those guys will shoot back at an errant bird! :eek: ", etc., etc.

I would venture to say this Hezbollah "victory" is going to cost Lebanon about $350 Billion to get where they were. I'm basing that on Hurrican Katrina is going to cost us around $300 Billion to rebuild Louisiana.

I think rebuilding in a year is an impossible task. It's going to take 5 or 6.

[SilverSpear]

I am actually glad to see Hezbollah coming forward to help rebuild. $300 Million is a good start.

And it isn't going to be easy disbursing that kind of cash, and they know it. Huge organizations that are designed for this kind of thing struggle. So if they pull it off, my hat is off to them... regardless of my personal feelings toward the group. As for the money coming from Iran? Glad to hear it. They need to throw in another few billion to rebuild the infrastructure while they are at it. Like power plants, sewage treatment, water distribution, etc. If anyone got a benefit from this, the Iranians did. They were the ones in the hotseat at the time, and this diverted the world's attention from them, and will keep that attention diverted for a good period forward.

Hint.... hint..... Wheels turning... motives... "attacked who without government approval?? Those guys will shoot back at an errant bird! :eek: ", etc., etc.

I would venture to say this Hezbollah "victory" is going to cost Lebanon about $350 Billion to get where they were. I'm basing that on Hurrican Katrina is going to cost us around $300 Billion to rebuild Louisiana.

I think rebuilding in a year is an impossible task. It's going to take 5 or 6.

Actually Rob, they are very fast, I have been watching the news daily, they hired tractors from all the country and are asking engineers and labor to come and help out (I mean hiring them). And not only they will be building Shiites homes, but also Sunnis, Christians and Druzes' who were affected by this War, in fact, those are the first to return home.

You will not believe, any of you, just let the future show you what Hizbullah is all about concerning such issues.

We also escaped our hometowns in the 1982 War, the government took 15 years to pay us to build our houses again. The budget was around 1 billion US$. At the end, the government paid around 3 Billion and not all people were paid to get back. Where did that money go??? To the thieves running our current government. This is why Hizbullah never entrusted the government with his arms and funding...

[Electrophil]

$3 billion U.S. is chicken feed in today's economy.

Unless the damage is a lot less than I've been led to believe, Beirut alone is going to cost over a hundred Billion to rebuild. And everybody is going to want the money and the bulldozers right now... but most are going to have to wait after the highest bidder gets finished.

[SilverSpear]

$3 billion U.S. is chicken feed in today's economy.

Unless the damage is a lot less than I've been led to believe, Beirut alone is going to cost over a hundred Billion to rebuild. And everybody is going to want the money and the bulldozers right now... but most are going to have to wait after the highest bidder gets finished.

Sorry Rob , I might have been not so clear, I didn't include Beirut, I meant the Villages in the Chouf district (on the map near Saida).
There was no coming back in Beirut, people were obliged to sell their land there to Rafic Hariri for cheap. He turned it what is known here as Central Beirut complex...


We also escaped our hometowns in the 1982 War,...

[Electrophil]

Sorry Rob , I might have been not so clear, I didn't include Beirut, I meant the Villages in the Chouf district (on the map near Saida).
There was no coming back in Beirut, people were obliged to sell their land there to Rafic Hariri for cheap. He turned it what is known here as Central Beirut complex...


Rafic and Hezbollah must be in bed with each other. Hezbollah gets it destroyed, and Rafic comes from behind and buys up the land. Hopefully he'll send Hezbollah a check for their help.

[sorceror]

The concept is that you Danny, are a terrorist sympathizer. You believe in the use of terror (mass murder) as a way to blackmail other countries. You come on this board with your anit-US crap, and by your statement above you think it's reasonable for some Indonesian mental patient to kill Americans.

Gee, you must really be sad that your sentimental Muslim pals in England got caught before they could murder a few thousand US citizens -- some of whom may have been related to members on this forum.

But the really sad thing is that every member on this forum would love to see the loss of life in Lebanon end today. But you think it's more important for the Hizbollah to keep this circus going rather than face the humiliation of returning the hostages and disarming.

You're mad that the US won't step in again and rescue the Hizbollah. Well, after the 241 marines were killed, the 3,000 plus of 9/11, and much more the US has about had it.

I guess this is what OBL wanted -- make this a Muslim vs the world thing -- instead of what it really is -- a bunch of homicidal maniacs bent on enslaving all Muslims in a kind of fascist, pseudo-religious, anti-women, prison.

You just better hope that the Muslim terrorists don't create anit-Muslim terrorists.

In closing, I hope the killing stops. I think Lebanese and Israeli deaths are equally saddening. And please take your anti-US, pro-terrorists crap to another web site.

Well Put I just want to add a little here. Danny? You cry out for help from the US and in the same breath speak anti-American threats. That is what is wrong over there. All the fanatics want to have it both ways for themselves as you obviously do as well. You can't have it both ways Danny!

[sorceror]

Sure not I never support Al-Quaeda or 9/11 attacks or Syria or Iran. Can you see this pic below? This is us celebrating at the time 1.5 million Lebanese revolted asking Syria out.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SilverSpear/37564.jpg

Whether you like it or not, we are patriotic people and we welcome anyone who supports us against any invador

I remember Danny claiming there are 1.5 million Hezbollah and Israel could never get them all.

Quick ... Someone hand me a Nuke.

[sorceror]

That is right, you should watch all TV stations and get a conclusion about what is right. But the thing is, our media is backed by footages and pictures, that what lacks in CNN and BBC. As people say, a picture is worth a million words.

As for Hizbullah, I said they are Resistance, and in the concept of resistance you all know that during war, they put the military cloth and during peace they live their normal civilian life.

But that doesn't mean that during war, they will fight from their own houses and casue their families and loved ones be killed that way... Would you do it?

Danny! They did it and the whole world watched it. Maybe you were missing it while typing here on the forums.

[SilverSpear]

Well Put I just want to add a little here. Danny? You cry out for help from the US and in the same breath speak anti-American threats. That is what is wrong over there. All the fanatics want to have it both ways for themselves as you obviously do as well. You can't have it both ways Danny!

Sorceror, I am NOT Anti-American, I am rather Anti-American Government. Why are you doing this? Why are you twisting my claims and want to put words in my mouth that I don't want?

Nobody can deny that the US is the most powerful country in the world. I love your modernization and ways of life. But your government's policy towards my country is wrong. We know that you can pull strings to make peace in the world, but no effort in this subject.

[SilverSpear]

Danny! They did it and the whole world watched it. Maybe you were missing it while typing here on the forums.

They will not risk killing their loved ones. What happened in Qana 2006? (this is the only example you know). There were NO rocket launchers in Qana, the Israelis failed to release a footage about the rocket launchers they claimed to cause them hitting that village. Even though the M.K. spy planes were all around the village for 3 days before the attack, and they saw no Hezballah presence there.

The footages you saw are true, but there are no CIVILIANS nearby

[Electrophil]

Sorceror, I am NOT Anti-American, I am rather Anti-American Government. .

Me too!! :)

Post +1

(Well.... Anti Bush. I kinda like the overall setup. :) )

[sorceror]

They will not risk killing their loved ones. What happened in Qana 2006? (this is the only example you know). There were NO rocket launchers in Qana, the Israelis failed to release a footage about the rocket launchers they claimed to cause them hitting that village. Even though the M.K. spy planes were all around the village for 3 days before the attack, and they saw no Hezballah presence there.

The footages you saw are true, but there are no CIVILIANS nearby

You point out one scirmish. Did you know there are claims the Israelis hit an area close to the building and the building stood for a day before falling. I don't know if that is true. I have seen surveilance footage of hizbollah firing rockets from neighborhoods (from people's backyards) and local businesses. You better believe the surveilance was true.

I have also seen footage of the lebanese press or, whoever it was, falsifying body counts. One was so ridiculously funny ... you see this guy there then you see him climb a mound of rubble and next you see him lying there dead. All in like 30 seconds.

I believe they have no respect for life at all. They did indeed fire from habited areas. You can call them civillians I think I will refer to them as combatants. If they are truly the heroic men you claim they would not have put their innocent civillian loved ones into harms way. As I said those innocents were probably hiding them anyway. The children who died in the collapse of the building was indeed a tragedy. It is too bad hizbollah chose to fire missiles into civillian areas and from civillian areas.

[sorceror]

Sorceror, I am NOT Anti-American, I am rather Anti-American Government. Why are you doing this? Why are you twisting my claims and want to put words in my mouth that I don't want?

Nobody can deny that the US is the most powerful country in the world. I love your modernization and ways of life. But your government's policy towards my country is wrong. We know that you can pull strings to make peace in the world, but no effort in this subject.

You see? Danny more seeds you are sowing here. You are purposefully trying to turn Americans against her government. Isn't that what all terrorists want to do to anbody that doesn't believe the way they do? I may not like a few politicians but I will defend with my life the American government. You see, Danny, the government is what makes America - AMERICA! Then you claim to hate the American government. Sorry, friend that makes you the enemy.

To make the claim America could magically cause all the hatred, racism, religious oppression and fanatics to suddenly become peaceful is absurd. What do you think we are trying to do over there? We are trying to stop all the fighting so we can help rebuild. Instead, for instance, in Iraq we have fanatics killing each other and kidnapping and killing people from all over the world who are there trying to rebuild it! Did I mention the torture your freedom fighters do to their hostages? Go to the web and do a search these guys are doing heinous things to human beings.

To even try and say to me America should bend her head to these fanatics, I hope, is completely out of the question.

As I recall on September 11, 2001 the world was a fairly peaceful place. But in reality Muslim fanatics were plotting from the Middle East to attack America. So they did. They murdered close to 3,400 innoncent human beings. They destroyed 3,400 souls. They destroyed countless families.

No Danny, m'boy, it is not America that can choose to make peace all over the world. It is the world removing the fanatics that will bring peace to the world.

Even if America pulled out and let you all just kill yourselves there would be Muslim fanatics plotting another attack against her. THAT IS NOT PEACE!

[DanSVX94]

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well said.

[b3lha]

You seem to be suggesting that in your "21st Century World" it is acceptable for Americans to kill people who their (elected) leader has labelled as the enemy. But it is not acceptable for Muslims to kill people who their (religious) leader has labelled as the enemy.

You present the opinion that america is righteous and peaceful, but as far as I can see, your precious american goverment is just as blood thirsty as the fanatics in the middle east:

In 2001 America started a war with Afghanistan using the excuse that the Afghans were sheltering OBL. The Afghan government were not responsible for 9/11, but they got hammered anyway and it turned out they were being truthful when they said OBL wasn't in Afghanistan.

In 2003 America started a war with Iraq using the excuse that the Iraqis had WMD (America has them too by the way, but that is OK apparently!). It turns out that was a mistake too. Iraq was not in any way connected with 9/11.

Now it appears that America would like to start a war with Iran as soon as they can find a plausible reason. I get the impression they were hoping that Iran would join in the Lebanon conflict and give america an excuse to jump in and help defend the poor Isrealis. But the Iranians were too smart for that.

THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF A PEACE LOVING NATION.

America was not dragged into these wars. America started these wars and many more innocent people were killed than in the 9/11 attack - and the killing is not over yet. Not by a long way.

[sorceror]

You seem to be suggesting that in your "21st Century World" it is acceptable for Americans to kill people who their (elected) leader has labelled as the enemy. But it is not acceptable for Muslims to kill people who their (religious) leader has labelled as the enemy.

You present the opinion that america is righteous and peaceful, but as far as I can see, your precious american goverment is just as blood thirsty as the fanatics in the middle east:

In 2001 America started a war with Afghanistan using the excuse that the Afghans were sheltering OBL. The Afghan government were not responsible for 9/11, but they got hammered anyway and it turned out they were being truthful when they said OBL wasn't in Afghanistan.

In 2003 America started a war with Iraq using the excuse that the Iraqis had WMD (America has them too by the way, but that is OK apparently!). It turns out that was a mistake too. Iraq was not in any way connected with 9/11.

Now it appears that America would like to start a war with Iran as soon as they can find a plausible reason. I get the impression they were hoping that Iran would join in the Lebanon conflict and give america an excuse to jump in and help defend the poor Isrealis. But the Iranians were too smart for that.

THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF A PEACE LOVING NATION.

America was not dragged into these wars. America started these wars and many more innocent people were killed than in the 9/11 attack - and the killing is not over yet. Not by a long way.

Your point of view is so one sided. Let's see where do I start? Do I want to go and get all of the data regarding Afganistan allowing OBL to train his terrorists in that country? Do I want to point out there is an awful lot of caves in Iraq where there could and probably are hidden WMDs? Do I want to point out the abject slaughters Saddamn perpetrated on his own people. Do I want to point out what he is on trial for now a totally different and perhaps as heinous or more as any of he and his family's murders?

Nah ... Your opinion is too one sided to discuss it with. I am willing to listen to rational discussion and my mind is open enough to admit when I am wrong and to even allow myself (through rational discussion) to change my opinion.

Do I want to even talk about the fact that Iran provided much of the weapons used by the hezbollah against Israel? Do I want to point out It stinks of a coverup/smokescreen from Iran so they could be left alone a bit regarding their fanatical desire to build nuclear weapons? Do I need to point out America specifically stayed out of it? Do I need to point out because she stayed out of it you blame her for it? Do I need to point out almost as soon as the cease fire took place iran was right back in the newspapers regarding its development of nuclear weapons?

Nah ... Your views are too one sided.

Do I need to point out America was attacked September 11, 2001 by religous fanatics and with no provocation? Do I need to point out how America can not sit idle while religious fanatics plot insidious ways to destroy her innocent habitants. Do I need to point out how it is not blood thirsty to respond to overt actions of war? Do I need to point out if you hit me I am going to hit you back and look to taking your durn fool head clean off? Do I need to point out that it is not blood thirsty that is called SELF PRESERVATION?

Nah ... Why bother ... Your point of view is too one sided. You are incapable of understanding the difference between defending yourself and starting trouble. It amazes me. It truly does how people who start a fight and then get beat up have the audacity to say the other person started it. That is not what real men do. Real men say damn I shouldn't have tried that with that guy. Cowards run to the teacher and say, "teacher, teacher ... He hit me."

Or sneak around and plot diabolically for revenge. Revenge for what they started in the first place.

[SilverSpear]

You point out one scirmish. Did you know there are claims the Israelis hit an area close to the building and the building stood for a day before falling. I don't know if that is true. I have seen surveilance footage of hizbollah firing rockets from neighborhoods (from people's backyards) and local businesses. You better believe the surveilance was true.

I have also seen footage of the lebanese press or, whoever it was, falsifying body counts. One was so ridiculously funny ... you see this guy there then you see him climb a mound of rubble and next you see him lying there dead. All in like 30 seconds.

I believe they have no respect for life at all. They did indeed fire from habited areas. You can call them civillians I think I will refer to them as combatants. If they are truly the heroic men you claim they would not have put their innocent civillian loved ones into harms way. As I said those innocents were probably hiding them anyway. The children who died in the collapse of the building was indeed a tragedy. It is too bad hizbollah chose to fire missiles into civillian areas and from civillian areas.

The Qana building ATE two or three complete rockets on its foundations. It was a 4 story building, now it became a one story building after the first three collapsed on the children.

I am not denying that Hizbullah is not doing this, this is the 1000000000X I say it, but I say it for the 1000000000X also, let the Israelis release footages of all the villages that were destroyed and let us see how accurate BS-ers those guys are.

What's that story about the pile of rubble? where you get those stuff? From FOX ??? hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Well I am only seeing here people taken out from UNDER the rubble all bloody and dusty...

What you want to think, think it alone.. real people are dead, and those were caused from the Israelis stupidity in this war... Hi tech BS weapons my @ss :mad:

You see? Danny more seeds you are sowing here. You are purposefully trying to turn Americans against her government. Isn't that what all terrorists want to do to anbody that doesn't believe the way they do? I may not like a few politicians but I will defend with my life the American government. You see, Danny, the government is what makes America - AMERICA! Then you claim to hate the American government. Sorry, friend that makes you the enemy.

To make the claim America could magically cause all the hatred, racism, religious oppression and fanatics to suddenly become peaceful is absurd. What do you think we are trying to do over there? We are trying to stop all the fighting so we can help rebuild. Instead, for instance, in Iraq we have fanatics killing each other and kidnapping and killing people from all over the world who are there trying to rebuild it! Did I mention the torture your freedom fighters do to their hostages? Go to the web and do a search these guys are doing heinous things to human beings.

To even try and say to me America should bend her head to these fanatics, I hope, is completely out of the question.

As I recall on September 11, 2001 the world was a fairly peaceful place. But in reality Muslim fanatics were plotting from the Middle East to attack America. So they did. They murdered close to 3,400 innoncent human beings. They destroyed 3,400 souls. They destroyed countless families.

No Danny, m'boy, it is not America that can choose to make peace all over the world. It is the world removing the fanatics that will bring peace to the world.

Even if America pulled out and let you all just kill yourselves there would be Muslim fanatics plotting another attack against her. THAT IS NOT PEACE!

This is another example showing that you are a racist and you know nothing about politics and civilizations...

[SilverSpear]

Do I want to even talk about the fact that Iran provided much of the weapons used by the hezbollah against Israel? Do I want to point out It stinks of a coverup/smokescreen from Iran so they could be left alone a bit regarding their fanatical desire to build nuclear weapons? Do I need to point out America specifically stayed out of it? Do I need to point out because she stayed out of it you blame her for it? Do I need to point out almost as soon as the cease fire took place iran was right back in the newspapers regarding its development of nuclear weapons?

Nah ... Your views are too one sided.

Do I need to point out America was attacked September 11, 2001 by religous fanatics and with no provocation? Do I need to point out how America can not sit idle while religious fanatics plot insidious ways to destroy her innocent habitants. Do I need to point out how it is not blood thirsty to respond to overt actions of war? Do I need to point out if you hit me I am going to hit you back and look to taking your durn fool head clean off? Do I need to point out that it is not blood thirsty that is called SELF PRESERVATION?

Nah ... Why bother ... Your point of view is too one sided. You are incapable of understanding the difference between defending yourself and starting trouble. It amazes me. It truly does how people who start a fight and then get beat up have the audacity to say the other person started it. That is not what real men do. Real men say damn I shouldn't have tried that with that guy. Cowards run to the teacher and say, "teacher, teacher ... He hit me."

Or sneak around and plot diabolically for revenge. Revenge for what they started in the first place.

How were the weapons used...m'boy ??? :D :D
Israel have the right to attack us and we don't have the right to defend ourselves??? where's the logic in that???

Ooops, here you go again... muslim fanatics.... well m'boy, not all muslims are terrorists like Al Quaeda. The Lebanese guy that was involved in the 9/11 attack was a Sunni and a member of Al Quaeda. By trying to destroy Hezballah, you will strengthen the Sunni influence in Lebanon i.e. Al Quaeda and Palestinians, and then the real terror begins...

But I think you are so much ignorant that you don't see this... along with the Israelis and your government...

Still Hezballah is a rational organization, which can oppress those guys and not cause terror in the region...

[lhopp77]

This is another example showing that you are a racist and you know nothing about politics and civilizations...

You accuse him of being racist simply because he supports being a patriotic American. The last time I checked we have more races here than I can name or count.

If you want to see a true racist----look in the mirror.

Lee

[lhopp77]

You seem to be suggesting that in your "21st Century World" it is acceptable for Americans to kill people who their (elected) leader has labelled as the enemy. But it is not acceptable for Muslims to kill people who their (religious) leader has labelled as the enemy.

You present the opinion that america is righteous and peaceful, but as far as I can see, your precious american goverment is just as blood thirsty as the fanatics in the middle east:

In 2001 America started a war with Afghanistan using the excuse that the Afghans were sheltering OBL. The Afghan government were not responsible for 9/11, but they got hammered anyway and it turned out they were being truthful when they said OBL wasn't in Afghanistan.

In 2003 America started a war with Iraq using the excuse that the Iraqis had WMD (America has them too by the way, but that is OK apparently!). It turns out that was a mistake too. Iraq was not in any way connected with 9/11.

Now it appears that America would like to start a war with Iran as soon as they can find a plausible reason. I get the impression they were hoping that Iran would join in the Lebanon conflict and give america an excuse to jump in and help defend the poor Isrealis. But the Iranians were too smart for that.

THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF A PEACE LOVING NATION.

America was not dragged into these wars. America started these wars and many more innocent people were killed than in the 9/11 attack - and the killing is not over yet. Not by a long way.

You are flaunting your true colors again. You are so anti-American that it truly amazes me.

If you don't have a better picture of the entire Afghani affair---you are also ill informed or totally blind.

I have always admitted that the war in Iraq is debatable even though I support it whole heartedly; however, the Afghan war was something totally different. Very few people around the world disagreed or disagree with the effort to defeat Al Qaeda, the government that supported and housed them (the Taliban) and helping the Afghan people reclaim their country from a dictatorial theocracy. Review the events of the country under the Taliban and then spew some more of your claptrap.

As to Iran---if the world lets them develop nuclear weapons---guess what?? The Islamic-fascist terrorists will go nuclear. What would you think about a nuclear device exploded on the river in London?? A nuclear Iran may very well make that possibility a reality.

Lee

[SilverSpear]

Lee, stop embarrasing yourself by attacking everyone... Just drop it ! No one is anti-american, there is no such thing... people just do not like your government policies in the world... can you dig it, s.... ??? :D :D :D

[RSVX]

The Qana building ATE two or three complete rockets on its foundations. It was a 4 story building, now it became a one story building after the first three collapsed on the children.

I am not denying that Hizbullah is not doing this, this is the 1000000000X I say it, but I say it for the 1000000000X also, let the Israelis release footages of all the villages that were destroyed and let us see how accurate BS-ers those guys are.

What's that story about the pile of rubble? where you get those stuff? From FOX ??? hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Well I am only seeing here people taken out from UNDER the rubble all bloody and dusty...

What you want to think, think it alone.. real people are dead, and those were caused from the Israelis stupidity in this war... Hi tech BS weapons my @ss :mad:



This is another example showing that you are a racist and you know nothing about politics and civilizations...

This is the most absurd statement you have made yet... nowhere in his post was anything even remotely racist.

I feel you are attacking him persoanlly, because his arguements are so good, that you have no rebuttle...

[RSVX]

Lee, stop embarrasing yourself by attacking everyone...

So, when you called Sorcer ignorant towards politics, and racist... that wasnt an attack.

Hello hipocracy!

Just drop it ! No one is anti-american, there is no such thing...

OK, that just beat your previous "Most absurd post".

[SilverSpear]

This is the most absurd statement you have made yet... nowhere in his post was anything even remotely racist.

I feel you are attacking him persoanlly, because his arguements are so good, that you have no rebuttle...

Chris didn't you read what he said? He generalized that all Muslims with arms are terrorists...

I need your opinion about the end of WW2. The Japs attacked Pearl Harbor and killed many americans... Retaliation's cost would be then to Nuke a mass civilian population??

Everything related to Wiping out an entire population is deemed terrorist by my book:
- Suicide bombing to kill many innocent civilians
- Mass bombing and wiping out entire villages
- Wiping out an entire country

Those are terrorist acts, if Iran goes by wiping out Israel, then they are terrorists... Israel proved to be a terrorist state, they killed nearly 1200 civilians and counting so far... the cause?? Hezballah hiding behind them... Well I can understand that in Southern Lebanon, but what about southern Beirut? what about Northern Lebanon? What about eastern Lebanon? Were Hezballah throwing Katyushas from there??? I would burn my SVX if anyone can prove it otherwise with photos and footages...

We as Arabs, do not take into consideration the existence of the State of Israel. Tell me one thing, anyone of you, where were the Jews before 1948 and what does their Flag means?
Go browse the web looking for answers and you will figure it out by yourselves... It MAY... it just MAY have an answer for the war on Iraq... I dunno

[RSVX]

Chris didn't you read what he said? He generalized that all Muslims with arms are terrorists...

But, he didnt generalize... He was very specific in his argument that it was the Muslim Fantaics. Not all Muslims. Perhaps you missed that part of it, or its a language barrier issue. Either way, he did NOT generalize.

I need your opinion about the end of WW2. The Japs attacked Pearl Harbor and killed many americans... Retaliation's cost would be then to Nuke a mass civilian population??

First of all, war was VERY different in the WWI WWII eras. All countries in those wars used carpet bombing, and could care less about civillian casualties. So singling out the USA wont get you anywhere. After these wars is also where the USA STOPPED using non-discriminatory attacks, and focused on military targets.


Those are terrorist acts, if Iran goes by wiping out Israel, then they are terrorists... Israel proved to be a terrorist state, they killed nearly 1200 civilians and counting so far... the cause?? Hezballah hiding behind them... Well I can understand that in Southern Lebanon, but what about southern Beirut? what about Northern Lebanon? What about eastern Lebanon? Were Hezballah throwing Katyushas from there??? I would burn my SVX if anyone can prove it otherwise with photos and footages...

You answered the majority of this question yourself, in other posts.

We as Arabs, do not take into consideration the existence of the State of Israel. Tell me one thing, anyone of you, where were the Jews before 1948 and what does their Flag means?
Go browse the web looking for answers and you will figure it out by yourselves... It MAY... it just MAY have an answer for the war on Iraq... I dunno

OK, where the Israelis were before 1948 is IRRELEVANT. And once you realise and accept that you will begin to understand.

The fact is that they are there now. Their simple existance there is NOT reason enough for war/raids/kidnappings/launching missles into CIVILLIAN populaces.

They are there, trying to live life, and protect themselves as a soveriegn nation. Hezbollah is there, along with many other Arabs(not all) for the sole purpose to destory Israel and all of its people. I beleive in your post that you, yourself stated that the concept I just explained is in fact one of TERRORISM.

Good Day.

[b3lha]

Nah ... Your opinion is too one sided to discuss it with. I am willing to listen to rational discussion and my mind is open enough to admit when I am wrong and to even allow myself (through rational discussion) to change my opinion.

Nah ... Your views are too one sided.

Nah ... Why bother ... Your point of view is too one sided. You are incapable of understanding the difference between defending yourself and starting trouble. It amazes me. It truly does how people who start a fight and then get beat up have the audacity to say the other person started it.

I've read enough of your opinions to know that you're not going to change them. But just for the hell of it, lets start with Afghanistan. If you want to believe that you were hitting back for 9/11 then so be it. But the inescapeable fact is, you failed to destroy Al-Qaeda. OBL and his buddies are still free and working on their evil plans. Don't get me wrong, I think that getting rid of the Taliban was probably a good thing for the Afghan people, but over 3000 civilians were killed by America in the process. Are their lives worth less than those of the innocent civilians killed in 9/11? How many innocent civilians is it OK to kill in pursuit of the guys who killed 2792 americans. Would it be OK to kill 10000 non-american civilians in order to catch OBL? What about 100000? What about 1 million? :eek:

As far as the "war on terror" goes, it's true that the people of the world need to crack down on extremists like Al-Qaeda. Nobody can deny that. But military force cannot work against terrorists. They are international criminal organisations not foreign armies. You cannot stop them by "liberating" countries any more than you can stop a serial killer in a crowded shopping mall with a squadron of B52 bombers.

The war in Iraq was no act of self-defence. America started it. Your last paragraph is particularly ironic in this regard. However bad a dictator Saddam was, he didn't have any WMD and he was no military threat to America. This was confirmed by inspectors both before and after the war. If he did have them, don't you think he would have fired them at your troops when you attacked him? It's not like you took him by surprise. The attack plans were on the news in advance. Was he saving the WMD for when he gets out of jail and regains control of his country? :confused: At least 10000 civilians were killed in the invasion of Iraq. Some reports have it as high as 40000. Many people believe that the real reason for the war was an economic one to do with the oil business. If that is true then there is a lot of blood in that oil.

Now lets talk about Iran, who would like to build a nuclear bomb. Of course they want a nuclear bomb. They are sitting on a big pool of oil which is becoming rapidly more valuable. They need a deterrent to protect that oil from being forcibly taken by powerful oil-hungry countries. If Iran believe that the Iraq war was about oil then you can see why they would be worried. The whole point of nuclear weapons is that you don't ever need to use them. The threat is enough - the cold war proved that. Once a country has nuclear weapons they are safe from military attack and will always be taken seriously at the negotiating table.

Label me as "one sided" or "anti-american" if you wish. In fact I am playing devils advocate to try and balance out the hypocritical pro-american propoganda that some people are spewing like it's god's own incontrovertible truth. We can argue these points ad infinitum (that's latin BTW ;)) without ever reaching agreement because there are at least two sides to every story. And that brings me back to the whole reason I started posting in this forum: To support Danny in his beliefs about the war in Lebanon because it is no less valid than your american beliefs.

[sorceror]

The following is very well written please pass this to all of your non-violent muslims and danny too ...

Religious War
An article from The American Thinker
By Michael Geer
July 17, 2006

[Editor’s note: The question of religious war haunts the world today. Some, but not all, Muslims believe a religious war is long underway and will continue until the entire world submits to Allah. Last week, J.R. Dunn began a series of articles advocating avoidance of religious war rhetoric. Today, Michael Geer makes the contrary case. The American Thinker will gladly host a debate on the subject in coming days and weeks.]

Given events in the Middle East and the near certainty of escalation, it’s time to name our enemy, because Israel is our canary in the mine of world events. And the canary is singing.

Ever since Thomas Jefferson’s replied to the Danbury Baptists with the phrase wall of separation between church and state and James Madison penned “Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.” and Ulysses S Grant called for Americans to “Keep the church and state forever separate” the policy of America has been to rest upon a foundation of respect for authentic religion and to shun the disaster of making religion our government.

The Left in our nation, who make government their religion, have formed ranks around separation of church and state as a bedrock. A Google search of Separation Of Church And State yields 21,500,000 results. The larger percentage of those results are hardened secular positions, like Wall Builders, Suburban Guerillas and Americans United For Separation of Church and State. Many of these are not just Constitutional argument websites, but more secular and obdurate anti-Christian web sites. Fine. We’re a big nation.

How does this relate to the current crisis between Israel and her enemies?

The conflagration breaking out around the world like a fever coming to the fore, is religious. It’s not oil, it’s not haves and have-nots, it’s not Marxism versus Capitalism, it’s not Globalists versus independent free thinkers.

It’s religion.

It is a war to the death between those who stand for Religion as State, and those who will not live under their rule of religion as state policy.

Oil is not that name. Oil is just a bargaining chip. Globalism is not that name. Globalism is only a sidebar. The virulent remnants of Marxism play a significant role in money and state-sponsored support, but Marxism is not the name. Our enemy, the enemy of civilization, and I dare say the enemy of Mankind itself is a religion which will kill, maim and terrorize any who will not accept religion as the State.

Islam is the name.

Islam was founded as a religion that is the state, where the state is the religion. The ultimate theocracy. There is no separation, no wall, no division. It is a seamless whole and any behavior is allowed to maintain that power. No crime is too gruesome, no argument too convoluted, no terror too shocking, and no theology too cancerous to be off limits in conquering the world for their god.

They mean to have government be religion, and for religion to be government. Jihad is the mechanism by which all of mankind will be brought into to ummah, the world community of Islam. And only then will we know peace.

I stand in shocked anger that those in America who work so hard for the separation of church and state are not horrified at the Islamist threat. Those who passionately insist on the separation of church and state ought to be on the front lines every day denouncing Islam and their global terror campaigns. making noise, agitating, pressing for Islam to be eradicated. But they aren’t denouncing Islam. Quite the opposite. They advocate eradicating George W Bush and the United States.

This is madness beyond my ken.

The very people inside our borders who work the hardest to see to it that America and Israel are ruined and kicked into the dust bin of history are the same people who take every opportunity to remind us about the separation of church and state. Are they not paying attention? Are they blind and deaf? Are they made dumb by their hate?

I am truly flabbergasted that these separation people seem to have no concept that if Israel is cast down and if America is driven to her knees, they’re going to get a church that is the State in such totality as to defy description. And it won’t do for America to simply refrain from international affairs as if a disinterested observer. This is the kind of annihilating threat that must be stopped before it grows any larger. Acceptance and diversity are fine-sounding phrases, but not when we’re discussing the end of civilized man.

A word of warning to our citizens who live on the Left side of the aisle, the anti-war crowd, the anti-globalist crowd, the anti-America crowd …. you say you are as separation of church and state as can be …. but what you’re going to reap is the soul crushing whirlwind of church as state and state as church if you don’t get a grip and wise up. You’re rooting for the worst kind of theocracy the world has ever seen, the kind that treats women as less than objects, that kills dissenters, whose distaste for homosexuals is literally beyond polite discussion, and whose Friday afternoon schedule is not cocktails but beheadings of those who take drugs, have sex out of wedlock, have a taste for pornography or show too much skin in public. Among the many crimes you now take for granted as your liberties.

Islam is the zenith of religion as government, and government that is religion. Our friend Israel is on the front line of the war to determine the future of mankind. Religion as state, or secular freedom that guarantees religious freedom.

Do you really want to bring to pass a murderous medieval theocracy? Is that the future you think you’ll enjoy? Is that the outcome you’re working for? Because if you keep tearing at our foundations and empowering this nation’s enemies, if you keep heaping scorn and invective on our President, if you insist that America is evil and must be radically assimilated into a metastasizing United Nations global plan, that’s exactly what you’re going to get and there will be no wall of separation. You will have torn it down.



Michael Geer

[b3lha]

If you receive an email entitled "Religion As State", DO NOT OPEN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS THE MOST DISTRUCTIVE EMAIL VIRUS YET!!! It will take over your country and turn it into an islamic state.

Send this warning to everyone in your address book !!!111!!!one!11


Fixed your post. :p

[sorceror]

Fixed your post. :p

Real cute.

I bet you didn't even bother to read it.

[lhopp77]

Real cute.

I bet you didn't even bother to read it.


Actually there was no need for him to read it---he would either not understand it or purposefully misinterpret it. :D

Lee

[sorceror]

You're right, Lee, :cool:

[SilverSpear]

But, he didnt generalize... He was very specific in his argument that it was the Muslim Fantaics. Not all Muslims. Perhaps you missed that part of it, or its a language barrier issue. Either way, he did NOT generalize.

Didn't he mean all Muslims with ARMS??? :rolleyes:

First of all, war was VERY different in the WWI WWII eras. All countries in those wars used carpet bombing, and could care less about civillian casualties. So singling out the USA wont get you anywhere. After these wars is also where the USA STOPPED using non-discriminatory attacks, and focused on military targets.

Oh reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly? Still not a concrete answer


You answered the majority of this question yourself, in other posts.



OK, where the Israelis were before 1948 is IRRELEVANT. And once you realise and accept that you will begin to understand.

It is the only and most relevant fact to the whole mess

The fact is that they are there now. Their simple existance there is NOT reason enough for war/raids/kidnappings/launching missles into CIVILLIAN populaces.

They are the ones doing so...

They are there, trying to live life, and protect themselves as a soveriegn nation. Hezbollah is there, along with many other Arabs(not all) for the sole purpose to destory Israel and all of its people. I beleive in your post that you, yourself stated that the concept I just explained is in fact one of TERRORISM.

They are like your Government, each 10 years they want to test their offensive and weapons capabilities...

Good Day.

Red above ^^

[SilverSpear]

Now lets talk about Iran, who would like to build a nuclear bomb. Of course they want a nuclear bomb. They are sitting on a big pool of oil which is becoming rapidly more valuable. They need a deterrent to protect that oil from being forcibly taken by powerful oil-hungry countries. If Iran believe that the Iraq war was about oil then you can see why they would be worried. The whole point of nuclear weapons is that you don't ever need to use them. The threat is enough - the cold war proved that. Once a country has nuclear weapons they are safe from military attack and will always be taken seriously at the negotiating table.

Label me as "one sided" or "anti-american" if you wish. In fact I am playing devils advocate to try and balance out the hypocritical pro-american propoganda that some people are spewing like it's god's own incontrovertible truth. We can argue these points ad infinitum (that's latin BTW ;)) without ever reaching agreement because there are at least two sides to every story. And that brings me back to the whole reason I started posting in this forum: To support Danny in his beliefs about the war in Lebanon because it is no less valid than your american beliefs.

Thank you B3lha, but I want to see that day when the US will stop Iran from building their bomb.

Iran has the same military basics as Lebanon. They have a very powerful army (they fabricate arms in Iran, most of them are becoming high tech now) and they have a resistance core of around 1,000,000 soldier. This is equivalent to 10,000,000 regular army soldiers... I just want to see how the world will stop those guys.

The good side of it is that Iran and thus the Arab world will have more influence in the UN council, and we would be able to make some sort of balance with Israel in the Middle East. Yes Israel would never dare to attack Lebanon and would resort to civilized conversations without directly heading to wars.

The bad side of it, I dunno if Ahmad Najadi is crazy enough to do it, but I highly doubt it... That bomb would of course be the last resort...

The following is very well written please pass this to all of your non-violent muslims and danny too ...

Religious War
An article from The American Thinker
By Michael Geer
July 17, 2006

[Editor’s note: The question of religious war haunts the world today. Some, but not all, Muslims believe a religious war is long underway and will continue until the entire world submits to Allah. Last week, J.R. Dunn began a series of articles advocating avoidance of religious war rhetoric. Today, Michael Geer makes the contrary case. The American Thinker will gladly host a debate on the subject in coming days and weeks.]

Given events in the Middle East and the near certainty of escalation, it’s time to name our enemy, because Israel is our canary in the mine of world events. And the canary is singing.

Ever since Thomas Jefferson’s replied to the Danbury Baptists with the phrase wall of separation between church and state and James Madison penned “Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.” and Ulysses S Grant called for Americans to “Keep the church and state forever separate” the policy of America has been to rest upon a foundation of respect for authentic religion and to shun the disaster of making religion our government.

The Left in our nation, who make government their religion, have formed ranks around separation of church and state as a bedrock. A Google search of Separation Of Church And State yields 21,500,000 results. The larger percentage of those results are hardened secular positions, like Wall Builders, Suburban Guerillas and Americans United For Separation of Church and State. Many of these are not just Constitutional argument websites, but more secular and obdurate anti-Christian web sites. Fine. We’re a big nation.

How does this relate to the current crisis between Israel and her enemies?

The conflagration breaking out around the world like a fever coming to the fore, is religious. It’s not oil, it’s not haves and have-nots, it’s not Marxism versus Capitalism, it’s not Globalists versus independent free thinkers.

It’s religion.

It is a war to the death between those who stand for Religion as State, and those who will not live under their rule of religion as state policy.

Oil is not that name. Oil is just a bargaining chip. Globalism is not that name. Globalism is only a sidebar. The virulent remnants of Marxism play a significant role in money and state-sponsored support, but Marxism is not the name. Our enemy, the enemy of civilization, and I dare say the enemy of Mankind itself is a religion which will kill, maim and terrorize any who will not accept religion as the State.

Islam is the name.

Islam was founded as a religion that is the state, where the state is the religion. The ultimate theocracy. There is no separation, no wall, no division. It is a seamless whole and any behavior is allowed to maintain that power. No crime is too gruesome, no argument too convoluted, no terror too shocking, and no theology too cancerous to be off limits in conquering the world for their god.

They mean to have government be religion, and for religion to be government. Jihad is the mechanism by which all of mankind will be brought into to ummah, the world community of Islam. And only then will we know peace.

I stand in shocked anger that those in America who work so hard for the separation of church and state are not horrified at the Islamist threat. Those who passionately insist on the separation of church and state ought to be on the front lines every day denouncing Islam and their global terror campaigns. making noise, agitating, pressing for Islam to be eradicated. But they aren’t denouncing Islam. Quite the opposite. They advocate eradicating George W Bush and the United States.

This is madness beyond my ken.

The very people inside our borders who work the hardest to see to it that America and Israel are ruined and kicked into the dust bin of history are the same people who take every opportunity to remind us about the separation of church and state. Are they not paying attention? Are they blind and deaf? Are they made dumb by their hate?

I am truly flabbergasted that these separation people seem to have no concept that if Israel is cast down and if America is driven to her knees, they’re going to get a church that is the State in such totality as to defy description. And it won’t do for America to simply refrain from international affairs as if a disinterested observer. This is the kind of annihilating threat that must be stopped before it grows any larger. Acceptance and diversity are fine-sounding phrases, but not when we’re discussing the end of civilized man.

A word of warning to our citizens who live on the Left side of the aisle, the anti-war crowd, the anti-globalist crowd, the anti-America crowd …. you say you are as separation of church and state as can be …. but what you’re going to reap is the soul crushing whirlwind of church as state and state as church if you don’t get a grip and wise up. You’re rooting for the worst kind of theocracy the world has ever seen, the kind that treats women as less than objects, that kills dissenters, whose distaste for homosexuals is literally beyond polite discussion, and whose Friday afternoon schedule is not cocktails but beheadings of those who take drugs, have sex out of wedlock, have a taste for pornography or show too much skin in public. Among the many crimes you now take for granted as your liberties.

Islam is the zenith of religion as government, and government that is religion. Our friend Israel is on the front line of the war to determine the future of mankind. Religion as state, or secular freedom that guarantees religious freedom.

Do you really want to bring to pass a murderous medieval theocracy? Is that the future you think you’ll enjoy? Is that the outcome you’re working for? Because if you keep tearing at our foundations and empowering this nation’s enemies, if you keep heaping scorn and invective on our President, if you insist that America is evil and must be radically assimilated into a metastasizing United Nations global plan, that’s exactly what you’re going to get and there will be no wall of separation. You will have torn it down.



Michael Geer

Hahaha, I am deeply touched by that guy, I nearly started crying.
I label the war on Israel as an ethnic war and not a religious war. The Israeli Jews consider themselves as the optimal race in the Middle East. The next best are Arab Jews then the Israeli Christians then the Israeli Arabs then the Arab Christians then the Arab Muslims with no discrimination between Sunni and Shia.

It seems our friend Michael doens't know what he is talking about. Why are the Shia angry at Israel? If you say because they are refusing modernization, then you would be wrong my friend. Come and check our ways of life here (Christians), we would be the first infidels then and the ones directly in front of the cannon...

Simply that the israelis are not accepting their neighbors and want to trash their rights. I tell you again, check the West Bank and Gaza in the Middle East, is that normal to you? how can a Palestinian government form like this? two separate entities? and now the Israelis have 10,000 palestinian prisoners and more than 25 of their government's ministers and deputies arrested and being prosecuted in Israel??? where is the diplomatic immunity of the VIP's?

I say it again, I am not telling you to back the Muslims instead, just stop backing the Israelis and all the world will live in peace. Did you know that Muslims is the second largest religion in the world?
Christians = 33%
Muslims - 22% (and rising at an alarming rate)

Good luck fighting all of them..

P.S: stop reading uncredible sources, this is not a religious war, rather it is ethnic (at least the base is).

[sorceror]

Thank you B3lha, but I want to see that day when the US will stop Iran from building their bomb.

Iran has the same military basics as Lebanon. They have a very powerful army (they fabricate arms in Iran, most of them are becoming high tech now) and they have a resistance core of around 1,000,000 soldier. This is equivalent to 10,000,000 regular army soldiers... I just want to see how the world will stop those guys.

The good side of it is that Iran and thus the Arab world will have more influence in the UN council, and we would be able to make some sort of balance with Israel in the Middle East. Yes Israel would never dare to attack Lebanon and would resort to civilized conversations without directly heading to wars.

The bad side of it, I dunno if Ahmad Najadi is crazy enough to do it, but I highly doubt it... That bomb would of course be the last resort...

Hahaha, I am deeply touched by that guy, I nearly started crying.
I label the war on Israel as an ethnic war and not a religious war. The Israeli Jews consider themselves as the optimal race in the Middle East. The next best are Arab Jews then the Israeli Christians then the Israeli Arabs then the Arab Christians then the Arab Muslims with no discrimination between Sunni and Shia.

It seems our friend Michael doens't know what he is talking about. Why are the Shia angry at Israel? If you say because they are refusing modernization, then you would be wrong my friend. Come and check our ways of life here (Christians), we would be the first infidels then and the ones directly in front of the cannon...

Simply that the israelis are not accepting their neighbors and want to trash their rights. I tell you again, check the West Bank and Gaza in the Middle East, is that normal to you? how can a Palestinian government form like this? two separate entities? and now the Israelis have 10,000 palestinian prisoners and more than 25 of their government's ministers and deputies arrested and being prosecuted in Israel??? where is the diplomatic immunity of the VIP's?

I say it again, I am not telling you to back the Muslims instead, just stop backing the Israelis and all the world will live in peace. Did you know that Muslims is the second largest religion in the world?
Christians = 33%
Muslims - 22% (and rising at an alarming rate)

Good luck fighting all of them..

P.S: stop reading uncredible sources, this is not a religious war, rather it is ethnic (at least the base is).

OK the above post proves it. You are a no legged no armed freak that uses his/her eylashes to type and that is because you were born in a home that was storing radioactive material for Iran or your father dumped you on your head, deliberatly, upon your birth in reprehension of your foul odors and the evil eminating from you.

I spent one whole day reading every post here. I have been sure to read every post since I got involved.

You have clearly and openly stated you would like to see Israel nuked. You have clearly and openly stated you hate America. You have clearly an openly stated you back terrorist regimes. You have clearly and openly stated you are racist (you did it no less in the above post). You have clearly and openly said we should leave the terrorists (who bombed us during peace time) alone so they could continue to plot their murderous madness. You have clearly and openly not dispayed one single aspect or trait attributed to a Christian.

Danny, here endeth the lesson. If you still purport to be Christian it is only because you are a coward. You have not displayed one trait of a Christian. You have clearly and openly claimed your allegiance to Muslim fanatics.

Now then ...I may be typing for days on thsi one ... You son of Satan, Understand this. Israel was attacked first. Israel is one of the most open nations in the world for taking in all religions. America was attacked FIRST. America is one of the most open nations for allowing all religions. All religions reside here peacefully. All people are taught here without prejudice. All religions reside in Israel peacefully and all religions are taught there without predjudice.

You - YES YOU DANNY! Want the world to be in some ridiculous war over religion. You - YES YOU DANNY! Want to try and convolute our discussion into some kind of, "See? I told you all the time it is a religious war". You Danny are in no way part of the solution. You - Yes YOU DANNY! Have truly proven to me you are part of the problem.

Do me a favor ... Until Iran accidently gives you radiation poisoning and the Israleis fly to the rescue. Go sniff some gas. I prescribe 4 times daily for 7 minutes each dose. Your prescriptiion is to last no less than 60 days.

I know (because we have places here for the mentally ill) it is hard for a freak to understand all life has the right to live. Until we can lock up all the freaks (you Danny) people must be on their vigil. Did you notice I said lock them up and not torture and murder them? I bet you pull the legs off spiders and watch them wiggle. No enlightened human would ever do that.

Your attempts to draw me or anyone else into a religious debate regarding Muslim versus Christians are the attempts of a diseased mind. You - YES YOU DANNY ARE THE PROBLEM. You will always claim this to be religious, or, as you stated above "ETHNIC" (your own words) . IT IS NOT.

It is simply people learnig to live together. Without diabolical plotters, like you, threatining destruction of innocent lives.

Dude as far as I am concerned your rights to own an SVX have now been terminated.

Can someone explain to me why I am even responding to a guy who admittedly backs the muderers and even admits to reteiving vehicles for the Hezbolla from a war zone?

Never mind I have my answer. It is because the peaceful people of this world will never allow a regime such as Hitler's to ever come to power again. For that I guess I need to re-up.

You are one truly sickening ... thing.

[SilverSpear]

OK the above post proves it. You are a no legged no armed freak that uses his/her eylashes to type and that is because you were born in a home that was storing radioactive material for Iran or your father dumped you on your head, deliberatly, upon your birth in reprehension of your foul odors and the evil eminating from you.

Hahahah, you make me laugh :D , Iran is getting the radioactive material from Congo, the same place your government got when it bombed Heroshima... Nooooo this is not terrorism.... Your government states that Iran is a terrorist state just for the simple fact that Najadi said "Israel must be wiped out" when in fact your Gov wiped a whole community in Japan and it is not labeled as terrorists right? In my understanding of the Nuclear missiles and bombs, their use should be related to a foreign space attack or a WW3 or so... You could just "scare" Japan by targeting a nearby place without killing all those civilians back then...

I spent one whole day reading every post here. I have been sure to read every post since I got involved.

You have clearly and openly stated you would like to see Israel nuked. You have clearly and openly stated you hate America. You have clearly an openly stated you back terrorist regimes. You have clearly and openly stated you are racist (you did it no less in the above post). You have clearly and openly said we should leave the terrorists (who bombed us during peace time) alone so they could continue to plot their murderous madness. You have clearly and openly not dispayed one single aspect or trait attributed to a Christian.

No I haven't clearly and openly stated that I see Israel Nuked. I said with sarcasm that the whole deal to it is to nuke both the Palestinians and the Israelis and be done with this conflict...
I haven't stated that I back terrorist regimes, I never backed any regime based on dictatorships, I hate both Syria and Iran, but I hate Israel more because it labels us as "Arabs" and not as Lebanese or Syrians or Jordanians, etc... They are very ethnic in their discrimination.
I am racist towards the Jews becasue they are taught to be like this against us, so???
I said you should leave the Muslim countries alone because the extremists in those countries might retaliate and cause terrorism in the whole world.
What? You want me to say and convince that Hezballah is the DEVIL and cause a civil war in Lebanon? If they were wrong, I admit it. When they are, I also admit it. I said that the Marines attack in 1983 was wrong... but on the other hand I gave you THEIR point of view but I never supported it...

Danny, here endeth the lesson. If you still purport to be Christian it is only because you are a coward. You have not displayed one trait of a Christian. You have clearly and openly claimed your allegiance to Muslim fanatics.

Stop posting BS like this... If Israel was as civilized as you think, it should have dealt peacefully with the soldiers kidnapping and not resort directly to mass bombing... But their ego would not allow them to do that right?? They want war, they want to show the world what their army is made of by killing civilians... The Israeli people admitted that, the UN council admitted that, Kofi Anan admitted that... why they bombed the UN post in the south by three whole missiles and killed 4 observers? It was deliberate to cover their massacres... but of course, your government's influence in the UN pressured the council to "forget" the investigation... but if Hezballah did that... that would be an act of terror in the world's eyes, right? There are around 275 UN observers killed in Lebanon from 1978 up until now, all KILLED BY ISRAEL, Google for info Mr. Backward

Now then ...I may be typing for days on thsi one ... You son of Satan, Understand this. Israel was attacked first. Israel is one of the most open nations in the world for taking in all religions. America was attacked FIRST. America is one of the most open nations for allowing all religions. All religions reside here peacefully. All people are taught here without prejudice. All religions reside in Israel peacefully and all religions are taught there without predjudice.

Son of Satan... well it's not me whose nicname is Sorceror, doesn't all Sorcerors rely on Satanic acts for Magic?:D :D
If you consider that Israel is the oneof themost open nation for taking in all religions, you are a major ignorant my friend. Arabs are living there, it is true, but how are they being treated? Do you watch the Kneisset meetings in Israel? When an Israeli Arab starts talking against the Israeli gov, the JEW judge directly points to the officers to throw him outside the room... this is their democracy that you think is correct.
I say it again more clearly, we want to live in peace so as all the world. For that your government should stop taking sides, plain and simple...

You - YES YOU DANNY! Want the world to be in some ridiculous war over religion. You - YES YOU DANNY! Want to try and convolute our discussion into some kind of, "See? I told you all the time it is a religious war". You Danny are in no way part of the solution. You - Yes YOU DANNY! Have truly proven to me you are part of the problem.
Do me a favor ... Until Iran accidently gives you radiation poisoning and the Israleis fly to the rescue. Go sniff some gas. I prescribe 4 times daily for 7 minutes each dose. Your prescriptiion is to last no less than 60 days.

Man nice speech, from whom you learned that? Ehud Olmert??? :D :D
If you look closely at the problem, you will see that Israel invaded Palestine and took its land and claimed it "state of Israel" I say it again, where were the Jews before 1948???

I know (because we have places here for the mentally ill) it is hard for a freak to understand all life has the right to live. Until we can lock up all the freaks (you Danny) people must be on their vigil. Did you notice I said lock them up and not torture and murder them? I bet you pull the legs off spiders and watch them wiggle. No enlightened human would ever do that.
Your attempts to draw me or anyone else into a religious debate regarding Muslim versus Christians are the attempts of a diseased mind. You - YES YOU DANNY ARE THE PROBLEM. You will always claim this to be religious, or, as you stated above "ETHNIC" (your own words) . IT IS NOT.

What the hell are you talking about??? Cheez, get a life man.... :confused: :confused:

It is simply people learnig to live together. Without diabolical plotters, like you, threatining destruction of innocent lives.

No like your F*cking friends who killed 1200 civilians of Lebanon, my country, the country I love the most...

Dude as far as I am concerned your rights to own an SVX have now been terminated.

It's not for you to decide what my rights are, but I guess you are used to your GOVERNMENT, you read well?? YOUR GOVERNMENT's twisted ways of defining OTHER'S rights... at the time it was labeled TERRORIST GOVERNMENT for wiping out an entire community just to show muscles...

Can someone explain to me why I am even responding to a guy who admittedly backs the muderers and even admits to reteiving vehicles for the Hezbolla from a war zone?

What do you label the Israelis then? peacekeepers??? hahaha, you are so uncredible in your answers...

Never mind I have my answer. It is because the peaceful people of this world will never allow a regime such as Hitler's to ever come to power again. For that I guess I need to re-up.

You backed them up, you clean the mess then... I am watching :D

You are one truly sickening ... thing.

I can imagine you saying it in a WOMANLY way :D :D



123456789 RED ^

[RSVX]

Red above ^^

Green, below...

Originally Posted by RSVX
But, he didnt generalize... He was very specific in his argument that it was the Muslim Fantaics. Not all Muslims. Perhaps you missed that part of it, or its a language barrier issue. Either way, he did NOT generalize.

Didn't he mean all Muslims with ARMS???

Thats not how I interpreted it, no.

First of all, war was VERY different in the WWI WWII eras. All countries in those wars used carpet bombing, and could care less about civillian casualties. So singling out the USA wont get you anywhere. After these wars is also where the USA STOPPED using non-discriminatory attacks, and focused on military targets.

Oh reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly? Still not a concrete answer

How is that NOT concrete? In that era all contries involved in the wars used the same non-discriminatroy tactics. Its from those wars that the world learned that civillians/non-military targets should not be targeted. Yet you call this "not a concrete answer"? What exactly are you smoking in your Hookah?

You answered the majority of this question yourself, in other posts.



OK, where the Israelis were before 1948 is IRRELEVANT. And once you realise and accept that you will begin to understand.

It is the only and most relevant fact to the whole mess

No, Danny... Its NOT relevant. They are there, and have been established there for many years. How they got there does play a part in this, but the fact remains... They have every right to be there now, and there is nothing you can do about it other than help launch missiles into their civillian populaces.

The fact is that they are there now. Their simple existance there is NOT reason enough for war/raids/kidnappings/launching missles into CIVILLIAN populaces.

They are the ones doing so...

You forget all the missiles that your beloved freedom fighters tossed into Isreal before any of this ever started? Having a selective memory will get you nowhere in this forum.

They are there, trying to live life, and protect themselves as a soveriegn nation. Hezbollah is there, along with many other Arabs(not all) for the sole purpose to destory Israel and all of its people. I beleive in your post that you, yourself stated that the concept I just explained is in fact one of TERRORISM.

They are like your Government, each 10 years they want to test their offensive and weapons capabilities...

You just keep one upping your most absurd comment, dont you...

Good Day.

[SilverSpear]

Green, below...

Originally Posted by RSVX
But, he didnt generalize... He was very specific in his argument that it was the Muslim Fantaics. Not all Muslims. Perhaps you missed that part of it, or its a language barrier issue. Either way, he did NOT generalize.

Didn't he mean all Muslims with ARMS???

Thats not how I interpreted it, no.

Liar :D

First of all, war was VERY different in the WWI WWII eras. All countries in those wars used carpet bombing, and could care less about civillian casualties. So singling out the USA wont get you anywhere. After these wars is also where the USA STOPPED using non-discriminatory attacks, and focused on military targets.

Oh reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly? Still not a concrete answer

How is that NOT concrete? In that era all contries involved in the wars used the same non-discriminatroy tactics. Its from those wars that the world learned that civillians/non-military targets should not be targeted. Yet you call this "not a concrete answer"? What exactly are you smoking in your Hookah?

The US were not in deep in the war as it was UK and Russia, YOU COULD JUST HAVE INTIMIDATED JAPAN and the World by throwing a sample of that bomb somewhere without killing civilians

You answered the majority of this question yourself, in other posts.



OK, where the Israelis were before 1948 is IRRELEVANT. And once you realise and accept that you will begin to understand.

It is the only and most relevant fact to the whole mess

No, Danny... Its NOT relevant. They are there, and have been established there for many years. How they got there does play a part in this, but the fact remains... They have every right to be there now, and there is nothing you can do about it other than help launch missiles into their civillian populaces.

Oh really? The Ottomans stayed in Lebanon for 500 years and in the end they withdrew because they knew that this land wasn't theirs, correct??? But the Israelis took the largest chunk of Palestine and they are working now on evicting the rest of them from Gaza and the West Bank... What a civilized world

The fact is that they are there now. Their simple existance there is NOT reason enough for war/raids/kidnappings/launching missles into CIVILLIAN populaces.

They are the ones doing so...

You forget all the missiles that your beloved freedom fighters tossed into Isreal before any of this ever started? Having a selective memory will get you nowhere in this forum.

Oh really?? Hezballah never launched any missiles before that war except in 2000 when it attacked the Israelis that are still present in the south... Between 2000 and 2006, the Sunni Al Quaeda in Lebanon launched four Katyushas to Israel... If Hezballah is disarmed now, a civil war will erupt in my country and then all the PLO and Quaeda in Lebanon will attack Israel... Which you prefer? The Honest Hezballah or the Dishonest Sunnis??? I frankly do not want both... but if I were to choose, Hezballah sure can make a balance...

They are there, trying to live life, and protect themselves as a soveriegn nation. Hezbollah is there, along with many other Arabs(not all) for the sole purpose to destory Israel and all of its people. I beleive in your post that you, yourself stated that the concept I just explained is in fact one of TERRORISM.

They are like your Government, each 10 years they want to test their offensive and weapons capabilities...

You just keep one upping your most absurd comment, dont you...

Prove me otherwise :D

Good Day.

BLUE? ^^ :D

[RSVX]

Im only going to reply to the WW1/WW2 portion of this...

You say that the US was not heavily involved?

You say that we werent as deeply involved... if by that you mean, there was no fighting (barring the south pacific) on our soil, then yes you are correct... However personell wise, we were VERY deeply involved.

And the world did know of our test firings of the bomb... they just didnt expect us to use it.

Tragic, yes... but effective? YES.

[SilverSpear]

Tragic, yes... but effective? YES.

Man, you like bloodshed, heiin??? With a Capital YES also !! :o :o

[RSVX]

No, I do not enjoy bloodshed... but go back to your history books...

Simply demonstrating it would not have been effective.

Remember, it took not one, but TWO bombs to stop the Japanese.

[SilverSpear]

No, I do not enjoy bloodshed... but go back to your history books...

Simply demonstrating it would not have been effective.

Remember, it took not one, but TWO bombs to stop the Japanese.

AHA!!! and if you go back to your history books, you will see that Japan did regret attacking Pearl Harbor directly after the attack "We were afraid that we woke up the GIANT"... I do remember those words from the Japanese captain of the carrier... so obviously they were pissing in their pants and the thing didn't need a nuke on their heads to prove your point...

[RSVX]

AHA!!! and if you go back to your history books, you will see that Japan did regret attacking Pearl Harbor directly after the attack "We were afraid that we woke up the GIANT"... I do remember those words from the Japanese captain of the carrier... so obviously they were pissing in their pants and the thing didn't need a nuke on their heads to prove your point...

Of course I know they regreted it... but that didnt stop them from continuing their campaign against us.

Its not like they said "oops my bad" and stopped... they KEPT ON COMING.

[lhopp77]

AHA!!! and if you go back to your history books, you will see that Japan did regret attacking Pearl Harbor directly after the attack "We were afraid that we woke up the GIANT"... I do remember those words from the Japanese captain of the carrier... so obviously they were pissing in their pants and the thing didn't need a nuke on their heads to prove your point...

You are demonstrating a severe lack of knowledge about WWII. Both as to the involvement of the USA in it and particularly the events leading up to the possible invasion of the Japanese mainland. You seem to have no idea of the tenacity and even suicidal defensive tactics of the Japanese military on the island stepping stones leading to Japan proper. "They were hardly pissing in their pants".

You need to do a little research and you will see that battle damage and casualty assessments indicated that many many more people would be killed and more total distruction result from a ground invasion. The casualties would have been on both sides. The bomb was totally less costly in terms of lives and infinitely less costly to US lives.

As an interesting sidelight---a little research will also reveal that more people died from allied forces fire bombing cities (European and Japanese) than by the A-bombs. It was the huge psychological impact of the A-bombs that caused Japan to surrender----not the casualties. That many would have died from fire bombing.

Lee

[mohrds]

Stop the personal insults and attacks.

Read the rules about posting. Here's a link:
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/How-To/15892.doc

Thank you.

Doug

[DanSVX94]

Doug,

I think Danny has kept this going way too long. Everyone who tries to communicate with him gives up. I think the moderators should delete this whole topic and related threads. This stuff doesn't belong on this site. You can't blame people for arguing with Danny when he behaves like this.

[Earthworm]

Stop the personal insults and attacks.

Read the rules about posting. Here's a link:
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/How-To/15892.doc

Thank you.

DougThanks Doug. I was just about to PM you about these threads.

[mohrds]

Doug,

I think Danny has kept this going way too long. Everyone who tries to communicate with him gives up. I think the moderators should delete this whole topic and related threads. This stuff doesn't belong on this site. You can't blame people for arguing with Danny when he behaves like this.

It takes two to argue...

[sorceror]

It takes two to argue...

I agree mohrds. It does take two. One troublemaker and the person that refuses to back down when the troublemaker continues to want to fight.

Kind of like what Israel did to the terrorist regime of the Lebanese.

I agree with Dan Lock all the threads and or remove them. Danny is becoming rather tasteless.

Japan at pearl harbor bombed everyone. They flew low over the island and dropped bombs and fired their machine guns at anything that moved. Mostly specifically civillians who had no bomb shelters to run to.

So Danny suggests maybe we should have invited them over and show them what we can do. Preposterous. As was said during that war everyone did it to everyone. Look at thehistory of the decimated cities throughout the world caused by Germany and Japan.

We were not at war with them and didn't even know they were coming.

[Electrophil]

After careful consideration, I have decided that this thread also sux.

[sorceror]

After careful consideration, I have decided that this thread also sux.

I concur. :)

[DanSVX94]

It takes two to argue...

Of course I agree it does take two.

But this isn't like arguing over whether one set of tires is better on your SVX, or anything even remotely close.

Here you have someone coming on this site and making racist and pro-terrorist remarks and worse.

Why is Danny hitting us on the head with the same stuff over and over and over?

Why do we have hundreds of pages of this crap here? Why?

Are members of this site, who live in the US supposed to let this propaganda go on and on? And how about the Jewish members of this site? Or the members of this site in the armed forces or with family in the armed forces, let alone people with friends or family who died in 9/11? How offensive is Danny's crap to them?

I don't think any of these threads have done anything to improve the site or the community.

Here's the bottom line:

I'm glad Danny and his SVX are safe. It's terrible that all this ever happened.

Now lets get back to having the fun web site that we had in June.

[b3lha]

Actually there was no need for him to read it---he would either not understand it or purposefully misinterpret it. :D
Lee

Thank you for your confidence in me Lee. I honestly and sincerely respect your intelligently formed opinions even if I don't always agree with them. :)

The article submitted is indeed well written and appears to have been designed to stimulate debate and discussion in a public forum. As such it contains deliberately flawed arguments and deliberately flakey conclusions. If the arguments and conclusions were solid then there would be nothing to debate. The article is also blatently Islamophobic and Sorcerors suggestion that I should pass it to my muslim friends is contemptable.

I am sure that most of us here have muslim friends and we know that the vast majority of muslims are not fanatical extremists hell bent on the destruction of all non-believers. Nonetheless, the article argues that people should be pressing for the irradication of islam. In other words, "the destruction of all believers". Isn't that exactly the sort of fanatical extremism that the author is trying to argue against? :confused:

The most startling assertation is that the people who quite rightly refuse to allow the christian religion to control american politics will allow the muslim religion to control american politics. :confused:

So that's what I think of the article, but it's probably just because I didn't understand it or I deliberately misinterpreted it. :p Now I think I'll print it out, cut it into squares and keep it by the toilet for later.

This thread sux.

[sorceror]

Thank you for your confidence in me Lee. I honestly and sincerely respect your intelligently formed opinions even if I don't always agree with them. :)

The article submitted is indeed well written and appears to have been designed to stimulate debate and discussion in a public forum. As such it contains deliberately flawed arguments and deliberately flakey conclusions. If the arguments and conclusions were solid then there would be nothing to debate. The article is also blatently Islamophobic and Sorcerors suggestion that I should pass it to my muslim friends is contemptable.

I am sure that most of us here have muslim friends and we know that the vast majority of muslims are not fanatical extremists hell bent on the destruction of all non-believers. Nonetheless, the article argues that people should be pressing for the irradication of islam. In other words, "the destruction of all believers". Isn't that exactly the sort of fanatical extremism that the author is trying to argue against? :confused:

The most startling assertation is that the people who quite rightly refuse to allow the christian religion to control american politics will allow the muslim religion to control american politics. :confused:

So that's what I think of the article, but it's probably just because I didn't understand it or I deliberately misinterpreted it. :p Now I think I'll print it out, cut it into squares and keep it by the toilet for later.

This thread sux.

Let me say this ... This thread sux.

Now that being said ... If you would like I can attach a link to an interview from 3 EX terrorists for Islam. They are all here in America seeking safe harbor. It is very enlightening but rather lengthy. Between 15 and 20 minutes. Since it took you 2 full days to read and comment on a short read you may not want me to even bother.

They claim 67% of - as you call them - "peaceful Muslims' are happy 911 happened and support Al Qaeda. They danced in the street and dance in the street every time a successful attack in any other country is carried out. These are not peaceful people, they rejoice in the killing, tortures and butchery of innocents. These are people with no peace in their hearts.

The author of the article was pointing out how ridiculous it is to make Religion the state and the state religion. Why? Because then only one religion can rule. Muslims hate Muslims now for just slight variances in doctrine hence you will always have war if the state is religion and religion is the state. Look at the Taliban ... Just another bunch of thugs who took over and set their religion as the state and their state as the religion.

Please go rent or download the movie ... The planet of the apes in fact watch the first three of them. They are a perfect example of a theocracy in action. From all sides. Heck in the third there is actually those who worship the bomb! The leaders know the truth but bury it from the people they rule to deliberatley keep them in the dark.

Go ahead and print out the article I posted, cut it up and wipe your mouth with it. Maybe some of its contents will come blaring through.

[SilverSpear]

You are demonstrating a severe lack of knowledge about WWII. Both as to the involvement of the USA in it and particularly the events leading up to the possible invasion of the Japanese mainland. You seem to have no idea of the tenacity and even suicidal defensive tactics of the Japanese military on the island stepping stones leading to Japan proper. "They were hardly pissing in their pants".

You need to do a little research and you will see that battle damage and casualty assessments indicated that many many more people would be killed and more total distruction result from a ground invasion. The casualties would have been on both sides. The bomb was totally less costly in terms of lives and infinitely less costly to US lives.

As an interesting sidelight---a little research will also reveal that more people died from allied forces fire bombing cities (European and Japanese) than by the A-bombs. It was the huge psychological impact of the A-bombs that caused Japan to surrender----not the casualties. That many would have died from fire bombing.

Lee

Oh God, I am going to play with Doug's rules from now on... but there was something that made me laugh the most:

"It was the huge psychological impact of the A-bombs that caused Japan to surrender----not the casualties."

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, are you serious about that statement??? because sure you are contradicting your ally Chris:


And the world did know of our test firings of the bomb... they just didnt expect us to use it.

Tragic, yes... but effective? YES.

Did Japan really surrender from a "psychological" point of view??? :rolleyes: :D

[SilverSpear]

Ok This thread is over for me too, it became an obsession...

I have my point of view and you have yours... I cannot convince you and neither you can convince me...

[b3lha]

Let me say this ... This thread sux.

Now that being said ... If you would like I can attach a link to an interview from 3 EX terrorists for Islam. They are all here in America seeking safe harbor. It is very enlightening but rather lengthy. Between 15 and 20 minutes. Since it took you 2 full days to read and comment on a short read you may not want me to even bother.

They claim 67% of - as you call them - "peaceful Muslims' are happy 911 happened and support Al Qaeda. They danced in the street and dance in the street every time a successful attack in any other country is carried out. These are not peaceful people, they rejoice in the killing, tortures and butchery of innocents. These are people with no peace in their hearts.

The author of the article was pointing out how ridiculous it is to make Religion the state and the state religion. Why? Because then only one religion can rule. Muslims hate Muslims now for just slight variances in doctrine hence you will always have war if the state is religion and religion is the state. Look at the Taliban ... Just another bunch of thugs who took over and set their religion as the state and their state as the religion.

Please go rent or download the movie ... The planet of the apes in fact watch the first three of them. They are a perfect example of a theocracy in action. From all sides. Heck in the third there is actually those who worship the bomb! The leaders know the truth but bury it from the people they rule to deliberatley keep them in the dark.

Go ahead and print out the article I posted, cut it up and wipe your mouth with it. Maybe some of its contents will come blaring through.

It only took me one day to write a considered response to the racist (ethnicist?) material you posted. I beg your forgiveness for being in a different time zone to you and having a day job and a life outside this forum. :rolleyes:

I'm sure that Al-Qaeda members like to believe that 67% of muslims support them. Funny thing is, when you meet muslim people and talk to them, they are just as outraged by the terrorism as everyone else. I'm guessing that you probably don't have any muslim friends. You should probably try and make some so that you can better understand the people you wish to see irradicated. Believe me, your views are far more fanatical and extremist than those of any of the muslims I've ever met.

I too have had enough of this forum now. It was fun at first, but it's no longer possible to have a reasonable debate here.

[sorceror]

It only took me one day to write a considered response to the racist (ethnicist?) material you posted. I beg your forgiveness for being in a different time zone to you and having a day job and a life outside this forum. :rolleyes:

I'm sure that Al-Qaeda members like to believe that 67% of muslims support them. Funny thing is, when you meet muslim people and talk to them, they are just as outraged by the terrorism as everyone else. I'm guessing that you probably don't have any muslim friends. You should probably try and make some so that you can better understand the people you wish to see irradicated. Believe me, your views are far more fanatical and extremist than those of any of the muslims I've ever met.

I too have had enough of this forum now. It was fun at first, but it's no longer possible to have a reasonable debate here.

I saw you posted a reply to the editorial that you thought to be humorous. Then 2 days later you posted an actual reply after being challenged to read it.

I do know some Muslims as I do know many people of many religious doctrines. Some friends and some co-workers. What a pathetic statement on your part.

My ideas for peace and tolerance for all peoples' beliefs are fanatical and extremist to you? My beliefs that are completely against murder, terrorism and torture by fanatics you find to be fanatical and extremist?

I guess I am just going to have to consider the source. You are obviously another supporter of the muders, tortures, racism and religious oppression of your heros the fanatical, maniacal, diabolical extremist Muslims.

[b3lha]

I saw you posted a reply to the editorial that you thought to be humorous. Then 2 days later you posted an actual reply after being challenged to read it.

The elapsed time between your racist posting and my considered reply was 25 hours and 22 minutes. The times are written next to each post for everyone to see. Perhaps you reside on a different planet where the days are shorter?

I do know some Muslims as I do know many people of many religious doctrines. Some friends and some co-workers. What a pathetic statement on your part.

Why don't you give them a copy of that islamophobic article and see if they remain your friends?

My ideas for peace and tolerance for all peoples' beliefs are fanatical and extremist to you? My beliefs that are completely against murder, terrorism and torture by fanatics you find to be fanatical and extremist?

You have spread your views all over this forum with a shovel. Anybody who has been reading your posts will understand what sort of a person you are.

I guess I am just going to have to consider the source. You are obviously another supporter of the muders, tortures, racism and religious oppression of your heros the fanatical, maniacal, diabolical extremist Muslims.
Yet again, you prove my point. I have nothing further to say to you.

[sorceror]

The elapsed time between your racist posting and my considered reply was 25 hours and 22 minutes. The times are written next to each post for everyone to see. Perhaps you reside on a different planet where the days are shorter?

Why don't you give them a copy of that islamophobic article and see if they remain your friends?

You have spread your views all over this forum with a shovel. Anybody who has been reading your posts will understand what sort of a person you are.

Yet again, you prove my point. I have nothing further to say to you.

You going to nuke me now or just murder and torture me.

[Trevor]

You going to nuke me now or just murder and torture me.

A shovels of bovine manure is that which he spreads Phil. Sorry I have put you at risk by publishing your name. :eek: