View Full Version : ENOUGH of the We Are Under Attack Thread!
DanSVX94
08-07-2006, 08:18 AM
I don't think there's any upside in continuing this thread. I received one demented pm and don't want any more. Danny should express this stuff on another web site. This is an SVX web site. The members of this site are at least 99 percent US citizens. I for one think the anti-US comments on this thread have gone too far and I'm offended by the level of bull expressed here. Furthermore the level of discussion has sunk so low as to be without any value. Everything that can be said on this topic has been said.
I hope Danny and his SVX stay safe, but enough already.
Duckie
08-07-2006, 09:26 AM
I couldn't disagree with you more. This forum is set here for this specific purpose. This is the reason a thread like this isnt allowed in general and not even in off topic. Everything read here is by choice, no one is forcing you to read it, get involved, rather you have to go out of your way to get there.
A persons opinion is a very valuable thing; taking that away from someone, just because they disagree with you is never the correct thing to do. Sure, there may be conflicting views, but that is the spice of life.
The PM's HAVE to stop. I hope that the mods of the forum don't allow for them to continue.
SVXRide
08-07-2006, 10:18 AM
I agree with Duckie here. While I want Danny to stay safe, I stopped reading the thread after the first day or two.
-Bill
DanSVX94
08-07-2006, 10:58 AM
I would agree with you guys if Danny's thread hadn't deteriorated to such a degree. Danny and a few others have made anti-US and anti-semetic statements. He has praised the terrorist group Hezbollah which is responsible for over 240 Marine deaths, and has killed many other Americans. Iran and Syria back Hezbollah, and both these countries are currently responsible for aiding the terrorists in Iraq that are killing many American soldiers.
A good friend of mine, a former Marine and a fire fighter was killed in 9/11. Terrorists groups like Hezbollah, Iran, etc are an enemy to the US and bear part of the responsibility for 9/11.
For these reasons and more I think enough is enough. Whether I read this thread or not, it's stench infects this site -- IMHO :D
SubaSteevo
08-07-2006, 11:30 AM
A good friend of mine, a former Marine and a fire fighter was killed in 9/11. Terrorists groups like Hezbollah, Iran, etc are an enemy to the US and bear part of the responsibility for 9/11.
Ummm...how exactly does Hezbollah or Iran have ANYTHING to do with 9/11? Perhaps you're not up to date on current events, but Al Queda (maybe you've heard of them, most were from a country called Afghanistan) was responsible for 9/11. NOT Iraq, NOT Iran, NOT Hezbollah. Hezbollah and Iran have about as much to do with 9/11 as Mexico and Djibouti.
This one time, at terrorist camp... I ate a shwarma.
Its true! I did in fact eat a shwarma, but I have never been to terrorist camp.
SVXRide
08-07-2006, 12:07 PM
I would agree with you guys if Danny's thread hadn't deteriorated to such a degree. Danny and a few others have made anti-US and anti-semetic statements.
If this is, in fact, true, then the mods should be diligent in their "editing" and/or lock the thread. This behavior has no place here.
-Bill
shotgunslade
08-07-2006, 01:43 PM
I would agree that there have been a few statements that have crossed the line. In defense of Danny, on a daily basis, he is watching his country being dismantled by bombs, so some of his statements may be overwrought. I have been distressed by his unification of the Israeli nation with people of a particular religion. I have been intending to point out to him that he is being bombed by the Israeli nation. With respect to anti-US statements, criticism of US policy, both past and present, has always been not only allowable in, but also characteristic of, public discourse in this country. And, criticism of policy, in no way, should be construed to minimize the sacrifices of those who tried to implement that policy.
I also have received several PM's, a couple of which I publicized, but will publicize no more.
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 02:03 PM
I am the ribbon holder for finding Hizbollah offensive. I was among the ones who dug up and put those 241 marines and sailors in bodybags. 4 or 5 were actually close friends, so it has the ability to even jerk a tear now and then. So I'm no fan of Hizbollah no matter how much Dan says they have... ah hem!... "changed".:rolleyes:
But.
The flip side of Freedom is tolerance, and I'm a firm believer in Freedom. Therefore I must tolerate.
The best thing to do is just don't click on that link. :)
SilverSpear
08-07-2006, 02:28 PM
Guys... throughout my thread, I haven't attacked the US in any way, I attacked Israel but never the US. WHat I stated about your government is it is supporting Israel through its policy of killing our civilians. We have around 1000 killed so far (that is without the ones we don't know about), i have a feeling that the number will rise to 2000 civilians. 25 days, 2000 civilians... do the math to reach Kill/Day...
Most of the stuff is new to you all, culture is different from US to Middle East. We have a religious war going on here, no more no less...
Hizbullah never made attempts outside Lebanon. He is fighting a lebanese war on lebanese soil.
Sunnites and Shiites hate each other, you know the war between them in Iraq. Al Quaeda and Hamas are Sunnites, Hizbullah is Shiite... they are like water and oil...
RSVX, shawarma rocks man :D , how many kinds you have over there??? We have basic two here, Chicken Shawarma and Meat Shawarma ;) ;)
I don't think there's any upside in continuing this thread. I received one demented pm and don't want any more. Danny should express this stuff on another web site. This is an SVX web site. The members of this site are at least 99 percent US citizens. I for one think the anti-US comments on this thread have gone too far and I'm offended by the level of bull expressed here. Furthermore the level of discussion has sunk so low as to be without any value. Everything that can be said on this topic has been said.
I hope Danny and his SVX stay safe, but enough already.
Out of curiosity, does the 'ignore' function filter PM's as well as posts of whoever's being ignored?
If it does, I recommend 'ignoring' Lee and your problem would be solved.
+1 leave the thread as it is and do not read it if one can't handle it. :)
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Hizbollah is trying to convince us that we have a religious war going on here, no more no less... That keeps us from realizing the huge mistake they made from crossing the border and attacking an Israeli tank 2 weeks ago. This way we can't blame them for giving Israel a free pass to destroy our country.
Fixored.......
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 03:01 PM
This one time, at terrorist camp... I ate a shwarma.
Its true! I did in fact eat a shwarma, but I have never been to terrorist camp.
Snort!! :D :D
That was like a joke granade. You read it, and like 6 seconds later, it sinks in... and Snort!! :D
lhopp77
08-07-2006, 03:57 PM
I want to definitely set the PM record straight. I have sent a few PMs and challenge anyone that I sent them to publish them openly if they think they are insulting, degrading, obscene or revolting. I know for sure that the PM that DanSVX94 is talking about receiving DID NOT come from me. Duckie is putting his mouth on the subject and I have never PMd him and have not intention of doing so. Some of mine have been published and I wish that publisher had revealed the only other PM I sent him. He did not because there were some points in it that he did not want published. Stop implying my PMs are totally inappropriate and should be reviewed by the MODS----PLEASE, MAKE THEM PUBLIC SO ALL CAN SEE. Like I said before, I say nothing in PMs that I would not say in open posting. I used the PMs in the other thread because I said I would not post there anymore because it was getting so ridiculous and Anti-American.
Lee
Duckie
08-07-2006, 04:13 PM
Why can I not coment about PMs without recieving one. I said the PM thing needs to be cleared up. People should not be publishing PMs they should be sent to mods if they find them offensive and then dealt with accordingly. Im not saying your PMs are offensive to me...I am saying that this battle needs to be stopped.
DanSVX94
08-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Newsflash to Danny -- the US can be friends with whoever they want -- and if the mideast or anyone else doesn't like it too bad. Gee it's a real shame the US wont allow Israels neighbors to wipe them off the face of the earth. Let's just be clear here. We all know that is what the surrounding arab countries want -- another Holocaust.
If Hezbollah gave a flying F for the people of Lebanon they would return the hostages and disarm. If any of the arab countries gave an f about the Palestinians they would stop arming them and stop using them as pawns to prop up their dictatorial governments.
Everyone on this site and has bent over backwards to be sympathetic, and not once have you tried to see any other viewpoint but the terrorists.
Try seeing how much freedom of expression you have in Iran.
I've hung out with lots of Lebanese Christians. I like their culture, food, music, etc. And I feel bad that they have family that's in danger. But once again if you invite terrorists into your home, and they commit crimes and cause trouble don't go *****ing about it.
While I'm not crazy about everything my government has done, I support it. And if some pissant wants to come here and talk trash about my country they can f-off. Go talk endless trash on some Jihad web site.
The sooner Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, etc etc etc are gone the better.
lhopp77
08-07-2006, 04:33 PM
Ummm...how exactly does Hezbollah or Iran have ANYTHING to do with 9/11? Perhaps you're not up to date on current events, but Al Queda (maybe you've heard of them, most were from a country called Afghanistan) was responsible for 9/11. NOT Iraq, NOT Iran, NOT Hezbollah. Hezbollah and Iran have about as much to do with 9/11 as Mexico and Djibouti.
You take exception to this posting by DanSVX94:
"A good friend of mine, a former Marine and a fire fighter was killed in 9/11. Terrorists groups like Hezbollah, Iran, etc are an enemy to the US and bear part of the responsibility for 9/11."
I read it somewhat differently than you do. He obviously knows who was DIRECTLY responsible for 9/11. I read it like he said it----terrorist groups "like" (as in the same kind of Islamic-Fascist terrorist organizations) Hezbollah and Iran (as in the foremost country involved in terrorist group funding) are the enemy of the US.
And they DO definitely bear some responsiblity for all Islamic-Fascist type terrorist organizations or activities. Through either direct funding, direct involvement, spiritual inspiration by radical mullahs, or simply moral support by public statements. It makes no difference whether a terrorist organization is Sunni, Shiite or any other sect---if they are Islamic fundamentalists that preach and teach irradication of Israel and ALL nonbelievers----THEY ARE ISLAMIC FASCISTS AND ARE ENEMIES OF THE US BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.
Lee
lhopp77
08-07-2006, 04:38 PM
It is interesting to note the developing story on reporting from Beirut. Reuters mostly involved and a Lebanese photographer. I am sure it is not the only case of this happening.
It seems he likes to alter photographs and stage propaganda shoots like the incident at Qana. So, this is the "fair and balanced" reporting from there. :rolleyes:
Lee
I think the polical forum threads are no better than the banned racing threads. We are here to share, discuss, and interact as fellow SVX owners and dip into the the general car world as a whole. The Not Exacty SVX threads are great as long a they stay away from religion, politics and sexual persuation. However, as a widower, I must say I am thinking hard ablout moving to the Channel Islands (that is where all these pictures are coming from, right?). Lets save some band width and our host's hard disc space and stay a little more focused.:D
Gene
Why can I not coment about PMs without recieving one. I said the PM thing needs to be cleared up. People should not be publishing PMs they should be sent to mods if they find them offensive and then dealt with accordingly. Im not saying your PMs are offensive to me...I am saying that this battle needs to be stopped.
I disagree. If someone wants to publically post a PM, they should be able to. Just know that if the post does not meet the required guidelines for 'proper' posts, then the poster (not the original author) should be punished. The original author kept to rules by sending it via Private Message.
I'm amazed that the solution for receiving a 'offensive' PM is to report it to the mods. :eek: :confused: Delete the PM, don't respond to them, and ignore the user are all great mechanisms to cope with differing opinions that maybe offensive in nature.
Heck, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll start sending the PM's I receive from Landshark stating that I'm a filthy, horse humping-poopyhead to the Mods.
<note to Mods: better enlarge your PM capacity, you're about to get a ton of PM's>
:rolleyes:
lhopp77
08-07-2006, 06:18 PM
I am posting my last insulting (implied) PM to shotgunslade.
PM:
I notice you did not publish my last PM. Did I say something that you did not want all to see? I don't care if you publish them.
Oh, I do take exception to the statement that I am trying to "personally insult" you. Well, unless calling you a bleeding heart liberal is an insult. I have definitely not insulted your intelligence or even questioned it. Just your loose use of facts.
I will admit that when someone starts talking about treatment of Indians 120-150 years ago---I get a bit glassy eyed and shake my head in wonder because it is usually a very narrow view and pointless reference. What about Indians 300-400 years ago---did we not do the same to them???? What about civilizations since time began?? What about slavery??? Now that was really a blight on our history."
Terribly insulting---wouldn't you say????
Lee
Royal Tiger
08-07-2006, 06:50 PM
Wow. I go on vacation and it all goes to hell around here. We should go back to the Alan vs Shadow wars. They were less intense. I even miss Robb. Not.
And france still sucks!
demonsvx
08-07-2006, 07:29 PM
And we wonder why we have problems in the world:rolleyes: If we cant get along in a cyber generated atmosphere, how can we get along in the real world? This forum was created for opinions,feelings,and thoughts on domestic and foriegn matters and not to create rifts between this great website I come to love. Everyone has a right to voice their opinions(at the time being)and I myself am guilty of saying stupid things. There at times on this forum people get too angry at what the other person is saying an shoot off a response without thinking. Why are we on this site anyway? To hate one another? I hope not. There are things I disagree with, just like anyone else. Why cant we see this without degrading the person starting a topic? Thank you for your time and consideration on this issue.;)
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 07:36 PM
I like France. They got this really cool tower there...
And a Archway. They got this Archway doo hickey thing that's really cool.
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 07:38 PM
And we wonder why we have problems in the world:rolleyes: If we cant get along in a cyber generated atmosphere, how can we get along in the real world? This forum was created for opinions,feelings,and thoughts on domestic and foriegn matters and not to create rifts between this great website I come to love. Everyone has a right to voice their opinions(at the time being)and I myself am guilty of saying stupid things. There at times on this forum people get too angry at what the other person is saying an shoot off a response without thinking. Why are we on this site anyway? To hate one another? I hope not. There are things I disagree with, just like anyone else. Why cant we see this without degrading the person starting a topic? Thank you for your time and consideration on this issue.;)
This post makes me really angry. I hate this post.
(I posted this without thinking)
demonsvx
08-07-2006, 07:44 PM
This post makes me really angry. I hate this post.
(I posted this without thinking)
See what I mean:D :D
NikFu S.
08-07-2006, 08:04 PM
I'm not reading this one, but I say Vive le Under Attack thread.
Electrophil
08-07-2006, 08:40 PM
See what I mean:D :D
I couldn't resist. :D :p
SilverSpear
08-08-2006, 12:04 AM
Newsflash to Danny -- the US can be friends with whoever they want -- and if the mideast or anyone else doesn't like it too bad. Gee it's a real shame the US wont allow Israels neighbors to wipe them off the face of the earth. Let's just be clear here. We all know that is what the surrounding arab countries want -- another Holocaust.
If Hezbollah gave a flying F for the people of Lebanon they would return the hostages and disarm. If any of the arab countries gave an f about the Palestinians they would stop arming them and stop using them as pawns to prop up their dictatorial governments.
Everyone on this site and has bent over backwards to be sympathetic, and not once have you tried to see any other viewpoint but the terrorists.
Try seeing how much freedom of expression you have in Iran.
I've hung out with lots of Lebanese Christians. I like their culture, food, music, etc. And I feel bad that they have family that's in danger. But once again if you invite terrorists into your home, and they commit crimes and cause trouble don't go *****ing about it.
While I'm not crazy about everything my government has done, I support it. And if some pissant wants to come here and talk trash about my country they can f-off. Go talk endless trash on some Jihad web site.
The sooner Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, etc etc etc are gone the better.
Dan, there is a huge difference between being friends for peace and being friends to support against. If you check your records you will see that there was a Hizbullah deputy (Trad Hamade) in our government who went to the States in 2005 and met Elizabeth Debel for country business purposes. Hizbullah is not like Hamas or Quaeda, they were trying to reach the outside world because the last thing they want to is to destroy Lebanon.
Well our pride and dignity won't allow the Israelis to win this War. We won't be intimidated anymore by them, not each time a "minor glitch" occurs, we will be facing a complete destruction of our country, this just doesn't add up. No one can pressure us this way.
P.S: When your government helped drove Syria out of Lebanon in 2005, I was more than satisfied with Bush and his government. But supporting massacres, this I cannot tolerate and we all know that your government can pressure Israel to stop those massacres and they are not doing so...
I have no issues whatsoever with your people, you all know how many times I have talked about going to the states and applying for a Visa and Green Card lottery and stuff... and I am still waiting.
Dan, there is a huge difference between being friends for peace and being friends to support against. If you check your records you will see that there was a Hizbullah deputy (Trad Hamade) in our government who went to the States in 2005 and met Elizabeth Debel for country business purposes. Hizbullah is not like Hamas or Quaeda, they were trying to reach the outside world because the last thing they want to is to destroy Lebanon.
Well our pride and dignity won't allow the Israelis to win this War. We won't be intimidated anymore by them, not each time a "minor glitch" occurs, we will be facing a complete destruction of our country, this just doesn't add up. No one can pressure us this way.
P.S: When your government helped drove Syria out of Lebanon in 2005, I was more than satisfied with Bush and his government. But supporting massacres, this I cannot tolerate and we all know that your government can pressure Israel to stop those massacres and they are not doing so...
I have no issues whatsoever with your people, you all know how many times I have talked about going to the states and applying for a Visa and Green Card lottery and stuff... and I am still waiting.
Well, considering your opinions (which is great to see another perspective on issues) stated in the type of posts, I'd say your chances of Visa and Green Card Lottery would be bleak especially since you've publically stated that you support the hezbollah (which is like the ultimate pure concentrated evil known to americans and israeli's alike).
Good luck with that. :p
dcarrb
08-08-2006, 05:35 AM
And we wonder why we have problems in the world:rolleyes: If we cant get along in a cyber generated atmosphere, how can we get along in the real world?
My thinking exactly.
I just like to drop-in on the political threads from time to time to say I'll be soooooooo glad when Hillary Clinton FINALLY gets into office and solves everything.
Bye now.
dcb
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 05:47 AM
and we all know that your government can pressure Israel to stop those massacres and they are not doing so...
Pressure? One phone call from us saying "Stop" is all it would take. They'd be out of there in a day.
Why our government won't do it is beyond me. Has Hizbollah ticked us off in the past or anything?
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 06:20 AM
My thinking exactly.
I just like to drop-in on the political threads from time to time to say I'll be soooooooo glad when Hillary Clinton FINALLY gets into office and solves everything.
Bye now.
dcb
I chuckle everytime I think of Bill as first lady. That's just funny.
SubaSteevo
08-08-2006, 07:30 AM
You take exception to this posting by DanSVX94:
"A good friend of mine, a former Marine and a fire fighter was killed in 9/11. Terrorists groups like Hezbollah, Iran, etc are an enemy to the US and bear part of the responsibility for 9/11."
I read it somewhat differently than you do. He obviously knows who was DIRECTLY responsible for 9/11. I read it like he said it----terrorist groups "like" (as in the same kind of Islamic-Fascist terrorist organizations) Hezbollah and Iran (as in the foremost country involved in terrorist group funding) are the enemy of the US.
And they DO definitely bear some responsiblity for all Islamic-Fascist type terrorist organizations or activities. Through either direct funding, direct involvement, spiritual inspiration by radical mullahs, or simply moral support by public statements. It makes no difference whether a terrorist organization is Sunni, Shiite or any other sect---if they are Islamic fundamentalists that preach and teach irradication of Israel and ALL nonbelievers----THEY ARE ISLAMIC FASCISTS AND ARE ENEMIES OF THE US BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.
Lee
They might be enemies, yes, but as I said, they are in no way responsible for 9/11.
If I murder Chuck Norris (we're speaking totally hypothetically here, so imagine that he is not invincible) and you are happy that he's now dead, does that make you responsible for his death?
DanSVX94
08-08-2006, 07:33 AM
Danny, It's not a matter of Israel winning this war, or of pride and stuff. Hizbollah started this. Return the 2 hostages and disarm. That would end it.
There's no reason for the US to try to make Israel stop, when Hizbollah would just continue the crap or start it again another day. The US has put pressure on Israel to stop when they had an advantage dozens of times over the past 40 years and no good has come of it.
It's not the US's job to rescue Hizbollah.
You want to be mad at somebody? Be mad at Iran, Syria, and Hizbollah for making your country a battleground. Be mad at your fellow Lebanese for letting Hizbollah infilitrate your country.
Landshark
08-08-2006, 07:34 AM
Heck, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll start sending the PM's I receive from Landshark stating that I'm a filthy, horse humping-poopyhead to the Mods.
yeah, but its TRUE! :p
Landshark
08-08-2006, 07:36 AM
This forum was created for opinions,feelings,and thoughts on domestic and foriegn matters and not to create rifts between this great website I come to love.
wrong.
this forum was created to move this crap out of the other forum to one where no one will see it.
unless they are EXTREMELY bored.
like i am right now.
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 07:50 AM
wrong.
this forum was created to move this crap out of the other forum to one where no one will see it.
unless they are EXTREMELY bored.
like i am right now.
Hey! He called me extremely! :eek:
MODS!! LANDSHARK CALLED ME EXTREMELY!!
(I'm telling on you.)
Landshark
08-08-2006, 07:56 AM
Hey! He called me extremely! :eek:
MODS!! LANDSHARK CALLED ME EXTREMELY!!
(I'm telling on you.)
i could call you other things, too. would you like a PM?
don't post it, though, because the entire site would implode on itself due to the vulgarities i will use. ;)
lhopp77
08-08-2006, 08:22 AM
I like France. They got this really cool tower there...
And a Archway. They got this Archway doo hickey thing that's really cool.
Here is a pic of another interesting piece of French architecture and construction.
Lee
RSVX, shawarma rocks man :D , how many kinds you have over there??? We have basic two here, Chicken Shawarma and Meat Shawarma ;) ;)
When I was in the UAE/Kuwait/Qatar/Bahrain I had primarily chicken or lamb shawarmas... I miss them so!
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Here is a pic of another interesting piece of French architecture and construction.
Lee
Wow.... that's pretty phenomenal.
Wow.... that's pretty phenomenal.
naw the french sucks just like TigerShark stated. Germany for president!!!!!!!1
Danny, It's not a matter of Israel winning this war, or of pride and stuff. Hizbollah started this. Return the 2 hostages and disarm. That would end it.
There's no reason for the US to try to make Israel stop, when Hizbollah would just continue the crap or start it again another day. The US has put pressure on Israel to stop when they had an advantage dozens of times over the past 40 years and no good has come of it.
It's not the US's job to rescue Hizbollah.
You want to be mad at somebody? Be mad at Iran, Syria, and Hizbollah for making your country a battleground. Be mad at your fellow Lebanese for letting Hizbollah infilitrate your country.
That's right Dan. I say kill them all.
When you kill a man, you're a murderer.
Kill many and you're a conqueror.
Kill them all and you're a god. :)
Maybe the some other country would allow you entry Danny, if you wave a white flag on a stick, wear a shirt that says f*** Hezbollah, and renounce your Lebanese citizenship. The Israeli's may not bomb your building if you stand on the roof doing that. :p
Duckie
08-08-2006, 02:41 PM
Oh yeah...the US has totally tried to make Israel stop by funding them millions to billions EACH year. Last year we gave them 2.2 billion and they are consistantly one of the top 3 paid countries by us. We TOTALLY want them to stop though... =(
immortal_suby
08-08-2006, 03:39 PM
wrong.
this forum was created to move this crap out of the other forum to one where no one will see it.
unless they are EXTREMELY bored.
Ding Ding Ding Ding!!1
we have a winnAr :D
Royal Tiger
08-08-2006, 03:39 PM
naw the french sucks just like TigerShark stated. Germany for president!!!!!!!1
Hey! We can run for office? :)
I didn't say they can't make something beautiful. Alot of french things are nice to look at. However naming a street after a convicted cop killer is a disgusting act with no redeeming value. It's not my fault their military gets run over constantly. They have been no friend of the US since the end of WWII, even after bailing them out of Vietnam, which they started.
benebob
08-08-2006, 04:28 PM
They have been no friend of the US since the end of WWII, even after bailing them out of Vietnam, which they started.
Actually they told us not to get involved there that we would eventually run with our tails between our legs. Of course we didn't listen then guess who was the negotiator for the cease fire that allowed the US to leave S. Viatnam.
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 04:41 PM
guess who was the negotiator for the cease fire that allowed the US to leave S. Viatnam.
Howard Cosell.
No.... really. CBS, Howard Cosell, and the rest of the evil left wing media brought an end to what was shaping up to be our mightiest victory.
Or at least that's what LandShark PM'd me.
Royal Tiger
08-08-2006, 05:35 PM
Landshark pm'd me it was Bob Costas and susan serandon with tim robbins as the facilitator.
Royal Tiger
08-08-2006, 05:38 PM
On a serious side note, Ho Chi Mihn was an American Ally during WWII and helped fight the Japanese. After the war, Truman was ready to recognize Indochina independance, until france stomped their feet and cried about recognizing pre war colonies in the far east. So they demanded Indochina back. france however didn't mind when they took possession of German colonies.
benebob
08-08-2006, 07:56 PM
On a serious side note, Ho Chi Mihn was an American Ally during WWII and helped fight the Japanese. After the war, Truman was ready to recognize Indochina independance, until france stomped their feet and cried about recognizing pre war colonies in the far east. So they demanded Indochina back. france however didn't mind when they took possession of German colonies.
Hence the reason the US media and ANYTHING the US did wasn't gonna help or hurt us in that war. We were looked at as the new colonialists to most of the population and of course that isn't gonna win the support of anybody except the rich, wealthy and corrupt. Vietnam wasn't winnable from day one and its unfortunately was one of Americans worst blunders ever. Sure as history shows on the battlefield it was an American slaughter of the Viet Cong but guns don't win support by the common folk esp when your an invader or appear to be an invader. It seems that the lessons we should've learned from it we didn't with what is going on in Iraq. Another place that has had too much internal and external issues to even come close to building a stable democracy in since it has been done by the barrel of a gun. How often does that succeed?
Rotorflyr
08-08-2006, 08:30 PM
I chuckle everytime I think of Bill as first lady. That's just funny.
Do you think Hillary will get some action in the Oval O(ri)ffice like Bill did?? :p
Hence the reason the US media and ANYTHING the US did wasn't gonna help or hurt us in that war. We were looked at as the new colonialists to most of the population and of course that isn't gonna win the support of anybody except the rich, wealthy and corrupt. Vietnam wasn't winnable from day one and its unfortunately was one of Americans worst blunders ever. Sure as history shows on the battlefield it was an American slaughter of the Viet Cong but guns don't win support by the common folk esp when your an invader or appear to be an invader. It seems that the lessons we should've learned from it we didn't with what is going on in Iraq. Another place that has had too much internal and external issues to even come close to building a stable democracy in since it has been done by the barrel of a gun. How often does that succeed?
surely you jest ben. vietnam was a success. remember, in every little 'gook' lies a little american that wants to come out. :p
lhopp77
08-08-2006, 08:43 PM
Hence the reason the US media and ANYTHING the US did wasn't gonna help or hurt us in that war. We were looked at as the new colonialists to most of the population and of course that isn't gonna win the support of anybody except the rich, wealthy and corrupt. Vietnam wasn't winnable from day one and its unfortunately was one of Americans worst blunders ever. Sure as history shows on the battlefield it was an American slaughter of the Viet Cong but guns don't win support by the common folk esp when your an invader or appear to be an invader. It seems that the lessons we should've learned from it we didn't with what is going on in Iraq. Another place that has had too much internal and external issues to even come close to building a stable democracy in since it has been done by the barrel of a gun. How often does that succeed?
There were very few Viet Cong fighting forces left near the end. They had been decimated. There were only a few communist political cadre. The vast majority of the fighting forces were North Vietnamese that had come south. The war WAS BEING WON on the battle field and in the government. While there was some corruption in the South Vietnamese government, it was slowly being eradicated. We could have won the war in the long term with minimal US force involvement, but with total logistical support and strategic air support for the South Vietnamese army that was growing in strength and capabilities all the time. Contrary to your statement, the Americans were very well liked by the vast majority of the populace.
Lee
Landshark
08-08-2006, 10:34 PM
Howard Cosell.
No.... really. CBS, Howard Cosell, and the rest of the evil left wing media brought an end to what was shaping up to be our mightiest victory.
Or at least that's what LandShark PM'd me.
i'll PM you a smack in the mouth because i like you. :)
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 11:03 PM
i'll PM you a smack in the mouth because i like you. :)
I like you too, so please hit me. :D
SilverSpear
08-08-2006, 11:19 PM
Pressure? One phone call from us saying "Stop" is all it would take. They'd be out of there in a day.
Why our government won't do it is beyond me. Has Hizbollah ticked us off in the past or anything?
Rob, it is not a matter of Hizbullah anymore, rather it is a matter of complete destruction and massacres of innocent civilians...
I stated before that there was 3 raid on a block a little bit far from southern Beirut and 2 mins away from my workplace... the death toll till yesterday night reached 56 most of them women and children. This block has no Hizbullah militants, never was part of this war, never had any Hizbullah leaders there, etc.... Israel never warned it would bomb this place and check what happened now!!! :mad:
SilverSpear
08-08-2006, 11:24 PM
When I was in the UAE/Kuwait/Qatar/Bahrain I had primarily chicken or lamb shawarmas... I miss them so!
Man you should taste the Lebanese Shawarma, we created it and the rest took it from us..
It's like the Italian Pizza that was created in Italy of course, and in the US you can find "Italian Pizza" but it has not the same taste as the native one ;)
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 11:38 PM
Rob, it is not a matter of Hizbullah anymore, rather it is a matter of complete destruction and massacres of innocent civilians...
I stated before that there was 3 raid on a block a little bit far from southern Beirut and 2 mins away from my workplace... the death toll till yesterday night reached 56 most of them women and children. This block has no Hizbullah militants, never was part of this war, never had any Hizbullah leaders there, etc.... Israel never warned it would bomb this place and check what happened now!!! :mad:
Somehow, I ended back up in this thread. I guess I lied. :D
Dan, I most certainly agree what is going on is not... in anyway... a good thing. But please understand I hate Hezbollah as much as you hate Israel. Just as Israel has attacked you, Hezbollah attacked us. The difference is, we didn't attack them first. Our guns weren't even loaded. We were there trying to keep Israel in check, and your boys took their equivalent of a jet fighter at 3am, and killed 241 innocent people who were there trying to keep the destruction of your country in check.
I hate Hezbollah. They are terrorists, and they have idiots leading them that do stupid things...... Like attacking a country that has a history of quick retaliation. They are stupid, which makes them dangerous, and they need to be disbanded for the good of our world. And if they don't find a couple of brain cells that actually work within the next couple of weeks, they are going to be sharing caves with al-qaeda. And Dan.... I'll be one of the first to cheer their distruction. Think Israel, think why you feel that way about them. Now.... What would be the difference between me and Hezbollah?
Again... You guys need to throw them out of your house. They are the reason you are going through this right now. Once again, Hezbollah, without any approval from your government or your people, attacked another country, and that country said enough is enough. No amount of religious justification, etc. dilutes that simple fact. It's pure logic.
Electrophil
08-08-2006, 11:43 PM
Tell them to surrender their weapons. They have the ability to stop the destruction of your country immediately, and you know it. All they have to do is prove they are men by admitting their idiotic deeds a few weeks ago and facing the music for it.
Or are they cowards that will continue hiding among your citizens?
SilverSpear
08-09-2006, 12:02 AM
Tell them to surrender their weapons. They have the ability to stop the destruction of your country immediately, and you know it. All they have to do is prove they are men by admitting their idiotic deeds a few weeks ago and facing the music for it.
Or are they cowards that will continue hiding among your citizens?
Look Rob, the fact that Hizbullah militants and supporters for ALL the Shiite muslims is both a curse and a plus for us (or you can say for the Shiites).
The curse is that Israel has an aliby to destroy civilian buildings and the plus is that the Jews cannot defeat the Shiites as a people.
Concerning their "Cowardness" in hiding behind civilians, I double dare Israel reveals footages of Hizbullah launching missiles from ALL the towns Israel has targeted and destroyed and as I promised I will reveal to you info even the Mussad doesn't know about "how Hizbullah was fighting Israel" thread.
SSSVX
08-09-2006, 02:06 AM
I only had one reply in that thread. :D I don't like and don't know much about politic.
Tell them to surrender their weapons. They have the ability to stop the destruction of your country immediately, and you know it. All they have to do is prove they are men by admitting their idiotic deeds a few weeks ago and facing the music for it.
Or are they cowards that will continue hiding among your citizens?
:p Come now Robert, you know they are not cowards nor are they dumb. They're resorting to tactics that are minimizing their losses and maximizing their effectiveness (at least in their opinion).
The more destruction Lebanon receives, the better for them.
I'm sure the Brits thought we were cowards hiding in the forests setting traps and taking pot shots at their well disciplined traditional army. Idiotic would be standing up front as targets for the better funded, better equipped, and better trained military. :p
benebob
08-09-2006, 06:20 AM
There were very few Viet Cong fighting forces left near the end. They had been decimated. There were only a few communist political cadre. The vast majority of the fighting forces were North Vietnamese that had come south. The war WAS BEING WON on the battle field and in the government. While there was some corruption in the South Vietnamese government, it was slowly being eradicated. We could have won the war in the long term with minimal US force involvement, but with total logistical support and strategic air support for the South Vietnamese army that was growing in strength and capabilities all the time. Contrary to your statement, the Americans were very well liked by the vast majority of the populace.
Lee
Wow!, LOOK AT THAT PIG IN THE SKY! You should really stop smoking crack it isn't very wise. Do you know how many N Vietnamese "came south" after we left? 575,000! That seems like a few to me to. If you don't understand history then maybe you shouldn't make things up.:confused:
lhopp77
08-09-2006, 07:46 AM
Wow!, LOOK AT THAT PIG IN THE SKY! You should really stop smoking crack it isn't very wise. Do you know how many N Vietnamese "came south" after we left? 575,000! That seems like a few to me to. If you don't understand history then maybe you shouldn't make things up.:confused:
Maybe you forget all that was going on at the time. I know how many NVA came south, I was there a the time. There were several things that contributed to the eventual fall of Vietnam. The biggest blow was the peace movement that caused the withdrawal of US forces before the
ARVN were completely ready to assume the major military role.
The ceasefire and peace agreement would have worked, if we (the US) had done our part to ensure compliance. Watergate actually emasculated the administration and kept Nixon from resuming bombing to enforce the terms of the agreement. Even without this, the ARVN were holding their own in the fight. When Nixon resigned and "weak sister" Ford bowed to the will of the left and did nothing---things started to crumble. The final blow was when US funding was refused. (Ironically, funding was cut off at the same time as funding for Israel was increased.) This was not totally a military defeat, but a devastating psychological defeat while limiting the ARVN capabilities. (Fuel rationing for military vehicles and operations, etc)
More NVA could have been killed in days than had been killed during the entire war if bombing would have been approved. They had columns of soldiers and equipment on all major roads going south. It would have been similar to the Iraqi massacre during the withdrawal from Kuwait. For the first time it would have been a totally conventional type war that they could not win.
Lee
lhopp77
08-09-2006, 07:58 AM
I like you too, so please hit me. :D
Based on your earlier posts you definitely deserve to be hit. SO, what will it be........???
A Bust in the mouth or a Crack in the teeth??? :D :D :D :D :p :eek:
Lee
benebob
08-09-2006, 09:00 AM
Maybe you forget all that was going on at the time. I know how many NVA came south, I was there a the time. There were several things that contributed to the eventual fall of Vietnam. The biggest blow was the peace movement that caused the withdrawal of US forces before the
ARVN were completely ready to assume the major military role.
The ceasefire and peace agreement would have worked, if we (the US) had done our part to ensure compliance. Watergate actually emasculated the administration and kept Nixon from resuming bombing to enforce the terms of the agreement. Even without this, the ARVN were holding their own in the fight. When Nixon resigned and "weak sister" Ford bowed to the will of the left and did nothing---things started to crumble. The final blow was when US funding was refused. (Ironically, funding was cut off at the same time as funding for Israel was increased.) This was not totally a military defeat, but a devastating psychological defeat while limiting the ARVN capabilities. (Fuel rationing for military vehicles and operations, etc)
More NVA could have been killed in days than had been killed during the entire war if bombing would have been approved. They had columns of soldiers and equipment on all major roads going south. It would have been similar to the Iraqi massacre during the withdrawal from Kuwait. For the first time it would have been a totally conventional type war that they could not win.
Lee
I haven't forgotten a thing.
Yeah, the Arvin was just about to turn the corner right. After 12 years of training. It was really going to assume the defense of S.V.
They were definately holding their own. The N.V. anticipated the invasion taking 2 years. How long did it end up taking? Since you we're there I guess I don't need to post that for ya? That's anything but holding their own.
The funding was never cut off as you say. The balloon bill for what $500 million wasn't approved and that was introduced in the middle of the offensive so it wouldn't have done a darn thing as by the time one ship with oil would have gotten there it would have been acceptted by Viet Cong.
Yes, more Viet Cong would've been killed in days then the entire war up until that point but you're lacking the knowledge that HAD THE US broken the cease fire agreement China AND Russia would've entered the war. The North KNEW this and KNEW that the US wouldn't do a darn thing otherwise, they wouldn't have gone down the roads. Where were the Arvin when they were doing this. They had plenty of planes and helicopters. If it would've been such a turkey shoot then even those 12 years of training should've paid off somewhat and taken out maybe 1/2 of the fighting force.
Obviously it isn't I who is lacking the understanding. It takes an outside perspective to anyalize the truth, not a biased individual who was involved such as yourself (no I'm not cutting on you but simply opening your eyes to reality). Its the same with Danny too, sure he's said things that have offended BUT you really can't blame him as we aren't seeing the current situation from his perspective and hearing the explosions seeing the pointless distruction to his home, etc... His perspective, just as yours has been warped by personal involvement.
lhopp77
08-09-2006, 09:21 AM
Yeah, the Arvin was just about to turn the corner right. After 12 years of training. It was really going to assume the defense of S.V.
They were definately holding their own. The N.V. anticipated the invasion taking 2 years. How long did it end up taking? Since you we're there I guess I don't need to post that for ya? That's anything but holding their own.
The funding was never cut off as you say. The balloon bill for what $500 million wasn't approved and that was introduced in the middle of the offensive so it wouldn't have done a darn thing as by the time one ship with oil would have gotten there it would have been acceptted by Viet Cong.
Yes, more Viet Cong would've been killed in days then the entire war up until that point but you're lacking the knowledge that HAD THE US broken the cease fire agreement China AND Russia would've entered the war. The North KNEW this and KNEW that the US wouldn't do a darn thing otherwise, they wouldn't have gone down the roads. Where were the Arvin when they were doing this. They had plenty of planes and helicopters. If it would've been such a turkey shoot then even those 12 years of training should've paid off somewhat and taken out maybe 1/2 of the fighting force.
You missed most of my key points. The first was that the peace (read liberal democrat) movement forced withdrawal of US forces prematurely and at a time that we were definitely winning militarily. We had been winning the war since TET of 1968. The major VC/NVA attacks in 68 and the NVA attack of 72 were great tactical blunders on the part of North Vietnam. However, the liberal media turned major military victories into physcological defeats for the US. All I need to substantiate this is for you to read North Vietnamese statements and writtings on the war----how they used our press and liberals to win the war.
The other point I made was that bombing would have been started again LONG BEFORE the NVA presence in the South became a significant factor. And you are wrong--Russia and China would not have entered the war based on that.
The last point you missed was that the disapproval for additional funding (as I recall it was $160M vs $500M) was a "devastating physcological defeat". It was a strong indicator that the US was going to hang them out to dry because of liberal political realities. The ARVN lost their will to resist facing this abandonment.
My involvement in Vietnam was on a totally different level than Dannys current status and I assure you that it was not clouded by my feelings. I could also discuss what we were doing wrong and what the RVN/ARVN contributed to the entire affair, but that is a totally different discussion and not for this online forum. However, my previous statements remain valid.
Lee
lhopp77
08-09-2006, 09:25 AM
Will Rogers, who died in a plane crash with Wylie Post in 1935, was probably the greatest political sage this world has ever known. Enjoy the following:
1. Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco.
2. Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.
3. There are 2 theories to arguing with a woman...neither works.
4. Never miss a good chance to shut up.
5. Always drink upstream from the herd.
6. If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
7. The quickest way to double your money is to fold it and put it back in your pocket.
8. There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
9. Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
10. If you're riding' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.
11. Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier'n puttin' it back.
12. After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral:
When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
ABOUT GROWING OLDER...
First ~ Eventually you will reach a point when you stop lying about your age and start bragging about it.
Second ~ The older we get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.
Third ~ Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Fourth ~ When you are dissatisfied and would like to go back to youth, think of Algebra.
Fifth ~ You know you are getting old when everything either dries up or leaks.
Sixth ~ I don't know how I got over the hill without getting to the top.
Seventh ~ One of the many things no one tells you about aging is that it is such a nice change from being young.
Eighth ~ One must wait until evening to see how splendid the day has been.
Ninth ~ Being young is beautiful, but being old is comfortable.
Tenth ~ Long ago when men cursed and beat the ground with sticks, it was called witchcraft. Today it's called golf.
And finally ~ If you don't learn to laugh at trouble, you won't have anything to laugh at when you are old.
Lee
Manarius
08-09-2006, 09:55 AM
Be mad at your fellow Lebanese for letting Hizbollah infilitrate your country.Finally! Someone who speaks in some sort of logic! If you vote Terrorists into your government, you're responsible for the consequences! It's a hard thing to take in, but that's the way it is. If the Lebanese were really against Hezbollah and their terrorism, they would rise up and fight off these terrorists and the Lebanese government would send in troops to fight Hezbollah! It would be like a big giant civil war in Lebanon, but if that's what it takes to get rid of that group of terrorists then so be it. The US would be happy to supply the Lebanese government if they were willing to fight off Hezbollah.
The thing about the Middle East is that whoever has the biggest weapon is the one who rules. Right now, Israel has nukes and guns and tanks and they're the strongest. They're not going to take crap from Hezbollah, a bunch of terrorists like Al Qaida; only they try to parade around as a legitimate group of people.
Electrophil
08-09-2006, 11:03 AM
:p Come now Robert, you know they are not cowards nor are they dumb. They're resorting to tactics that are minimizing their losses and maximizing their effectiveness (at least in their opinion).
The more destruction Lebanon receives, the better for them.
I'm sure the Brits thought we were cowards hiding in the forests setting traps and taking pot shots at their well disciplined traditional army. Idiotic would be standing up front as targets for the better funded, better equipped, and better trained military. :p
I fully agree. And we most certainly did the same thing. The difference is, we lived here. It was our home controlled by a foreign country. We were trying to take ownership from the Brits. Hizbollah isn't fighting for it's independence on land it feels belongs to them.
This particular scenario is like some foreign group coming into the U.S., and taking pot shots at Canada. Our government and people wouldn't stand for it. We would denounce them as terrorists on our own soil, and hunt them down as the criminals we would see them as.
Lebanon needs to see that, and throw them out. Is there any doubt how all of this began? Hizbollah did not have the authority to attack Israel. But Lebanon is paying the price.
Saying this is a religious thing is also ignoring the obvious. A tank, a couple of soldiers, and jailed political prisoners in Israel aren't religious items. It's a sad and false justification just as the crusades were a false justification for a land and asset grab.
Electrophil
08-09-2006, 11:08 AM
This particular scenario is like some foreign group coming into the U.S., and taking pot shots at Canada. Our government and people wouldn't stand for it.
This of course does not dilute the fact that I fully support a government sanctioned invasion of Canada to free them from their evil dictators. Viva la revolutionary!!11!1!!1!.
SubaSteevo
08-09-2006, 11:10 AM
Will Rogers, who died in a plane crash with Wylie Post in 1935, was probably the greatest political sage this world has ever known. Enjoy the following:
1. Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco.
2. Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.
3. There are 2 theories to arguing with a woman...neither works.
4. Never miss a good chance to shut up.
5. Always drink upstream from the herd.
6. If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
7. The quickest way to double your money is to fold it and put it back in your pocket.
8. There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
9. Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
10. If you're riding' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.
11. Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier'n puttin' it back.
12. After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral:
When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
ABOUT GROWING OLDER...
First ~ Eventually you will reach a point when you stop lying about your age and start bragging about it.
Second ~ The older we get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.
Third ~ Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
Fourth ~ When you are dissatisfied and would like to go back to youth, think of Algebra.
Fifth ~ You know you are getting old when everything either dries up or leaks.
Sixth ~ I don't know how I got over the hill without getting to the top.
Seventh ~ One of the many things no one tells you about aging is that it is such a nice change from being young.
Eighth ~ One must wait until evening to see how splendid the day has been.
Ninth ~ Being young is beautiful, but being old is comfortable.
Tenth ~ Long ago when men cursed and beat the ground with sticks, it was called witchcraft. Today it's called golf.
And finally ~ If you don't learn to laugh at trouble, you won't have anything to laugh at when you are old.
Lee
There's some good advice in there.
On another note, it's stupid to argue about what could have/should have happened in Vietnam. Arguing that if so and so did such and such accomplishes nothing. Argue about what happened, but don't argue about what could have happened, because really you have no idea. If somehow you do know what would have happened, then I've got some lottery numbers that need picking.
Duckie
08-09-2006, 11:10 AM
I refuse to accept the fact that I am responsible for Bush's actions, I refuse to accdept that I am the one spreading oppression to Peru, Haiti, and the more obvious countries. I live here but I do NOT accept their actions as correct. Does that mean I should rise up against our government? No, the majority of our people would not support me.
I can promise you that the amount of people in Lebanon who don't support the "terrorist" orginization are in the absolute minority. Many people, like Danny, had no affiliation to them and aren't even part of the religion yet now support them because of what they have seen. Rising up against them would not only be political suicide but also the old fashioned kind too.
I fully agree. And we most certainly did the same thing. The difference is, we lived here. It was our home controlled by a foreign country. We were trying to take ownership from the Brits. Hizbollah isn't fighting for it's independence on land it feels belongs to them.
This particular scenario is like some foreign group coming into the U.S., and taking pot shots at Canada. Our government and people wouldn't stand for it. We would denounce them as terrorists on our own soil, and hunt them down as the criminals we would see them as.
Lebanon needs to see that, and throw them out. Is there any doubt how all of this began? Hizbollah did not have the authority to attack Israel. But Lebanon is paying the price.
Saying this is a religious thing is also ignoring the obvious. A tank, a couple of soldiers, and jailed political prisoners in Israel aren't religious items. It's a sad and false justification just as the crusades were a false justification for a land and asset grab.
I'm going to have to disagee with you on this one. I'm sure Danny will as well. From Danny's posts, the Hezbollah do think they are fighting for Lebanon or at least that's what they are leading their people to believe.
Granted, I don't know how long they have been in Lebanon nor do I know if they are entitled to anything in Lebanon, however if the country is divided into 2 with the Lebanese government on one end and the Hezbollah on the other, I'd have to say that the Lebanese government may not have the authority or power to disarm or control Hezbollah and that's why they obvious are doing whatever suits their fancy at the moment.
Heck maybe I'm wrong.
More nukes, more nukes, more nukes....
benebob
08-09-2006, 03:18 PM
You missed most of my key points. The first was that the peace (read liberal democrat) movement forced withdrawal of US forces prematurely and at a time that we were definitely winning militarily. We had been winning the war since TET of 1968. The major VC/NVA attacks in 68 and the NVA attack of 72 were great tactical blunders on the part of North Vietnam. However, the liberal media turned major military victories into physcological defeats for the US. All I need to substantiate this is for you to read North Vietnamese statements and writtings on the war----how they used our press and liberals to win the war.
The other point I made was that bombing would have been started again LONG BEFORE the NVA presence in the South became a significant factor. And you are wrong--Russia and China would not have entered the war based on that.
The last point you missed was that the disapproval for additional funding (as I recall it was $160M vs $500M) was a "devastating physcological defeat". It was a strong indicator that the US was going to hang them out to dry because of liberal political realities. The ARVN lost their will to resist facing this abandonment.
My involvement in Vietnam was on a totally different level than Dannys current status and I assure you that it was not clouded by my feelings. I could also discuss what we were doing wrong and what the RVN/ARVN contributed to the entire affair, but that is a totally different discussion and not for this online forum. However, my previous statements remain valid.
Lee
War is fought more with public opinion than on the battlefield. Has been forever. Seems the big mightly US government forgot that and the NV didn't. Oh and FYI party affiliation had nothing to do with it as by the end 70 percent of the population was againt the war to some degree and funny, the democratic party has never had more than 53% registered voters in the country at one time. Supid ANTI-LIBERAL REPUBLICAN IGNORANCE doesn't help ya here. You should understand facts first before you spout from your a$$!
Internal evidence does show that China was ready to join and Russia was definately considering so that would mean you're wrong. Or simply ignorant of FACTS!
FYI it was $500 million. Again, your wrong or simply ignorant of the FACTS! Arvin was already getting slaughtered as this occured mid offensive. Slaughtered and the promise that money was coming so again, that had absolutely no bearing.
What statements are valid your lies and inuendos that aren't supported by the FACTS that can easily be researched at any college campus? Before one speaks they should know what they speak of. Obviously you don't!
SilverSpear
08-10-2006, 12:24 AM
Granted, I don't know how long they have been in Lebanon nor do I know if they are entitled to anything in Lebanon, however if the country is divided into 2 with the Lebanese government on one end and the Hezbollah on the other
Hizbullah are Shiites, they existed in Lebanon 400 years ago and formed the "Hizbullah Militia" during the period extending between 1975 and 1982 to defend Lebanon against Israeli invasions. The southern towns of Lebanon were mostly Shiites and they were getting everyday crap from Israel.
I keep reading people saying Hizbullah are terrorists just as Al Quaeda, newsflash boys and girls, you are being racist by that statement, not what you think is Muslim is terrorist. For me they are freedom fighters, they are genuinely fighting the Israeli invasion over Lebanon by weapons and not by self bombings. And not every country which has High tech weapons is considered to be a modern country. I am seeing civilians blood everywhere here and the Israelis claim they are being used as human sheilds by Hizbullah.
I say it again, I double dare the Israelis show video footages about this... and if the 4 UN observers that were killed in the south were seeing Hizbullah fighters throwing missiles next to them, they would report it before being hit by the stupid Jews... This is why Kofi Anan stated that it was a deliberate attack... 3 whole missiles on a UN building???
What you are hearing on your new is BS, and as the US was wrong in the Iraqi war, the coming days will show you that Israel is wrong in the Lebanese war and then you will realize who the terrorists are...
Until then we'll see
drivemusicnow
08-10-2006, 02:23 AM
Wow do I know how to Pick`em...
I haven't read a post here for a month or so I finally come back just to see what's going on... and this is the first thread I click on.. couldn't even make it through the first page without getting tired of it... It's the same old ish. I feel like I know you guys cause I know exactly what to expect in most of your replies... I've been reading these forums for far too long.
Back to your regularly programmed b*tching.
Oh, and the entire point of this thread is ironic... Let people *****, cause that's what people like to do. It's fun... Seee, you *****ed about how the thread should be closed, and for whatever reason it made you feel better... or not.
SilverSpear
08-10-2006, 02:38 AM
Who said politics wasn't dirty??? :D :D
What is applied as morals in other related SVX threads cannot be applied here
lhopp77
08-10-2006, 08:07 AM
Hizbullah are Shiites, they existed in Lebanon 400 years ago and formed the "Hizbullah Militia" during the period extending between 1975 and 1982 to defend Lebanon against Israeli invasions. The southern towns of Lebanon were mostly Shiites and they were getting everyday crap from Israel.
More pure fiction from Danny.
There may have been something called "Hizbullah" 400 years ago, but the current organization has nothing to do with that one except possibly name.
As everyone knows the current Hezbollah organization was formed in 1982. It swore allegiance to Ayatollah Khomeni and to establish an Islamic state in Lebanon. While it has delayed its promise to establish the Islamic state---it will come in the future.
Quit deluding yourself Danny and quit trying to mislead readers here that may not know the REAL facts.
Just the mere fact that you can go out on your balcony and take pictures of the bombed out Hezbollah areas is proof that the Israelis are being very selective in there bombing. We can see satellite pictures of the damaged areas and they are definitely specifically targeted areas and not the same as the Hezbollah rockets that are purposely aimed at all civilian areas. If they were better, there would be severe damage in Israeli cities and many hundreds of civilian deaths particularly after firing over 3000 rockets and trying to hit the city with a drone loaded with explosives. Which of course was shot down by Israeli aircraft. Did your news show pictures of it being shot down???? I doubt it.
Lee
DanSVX94
08-10-2006, 11:54 AM
I'm glad Lee is here to bring some common sense and reality to this topic.
I'm glad Lee is here to bring some common sense and reality to this topic.
Lee and Dan's right.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14278216/page/2/
Another attempt by those damn extremists. I say we vote now:
Carpet bomb England first or Pakistan?
Some say these bastards were homegrown in England. Some are obviously Pakistani. I've had enough, kill them all!
Airstrike the Pakistani communities in England because that country is harboring terrorists. The last train bomb was done by homegrown terrorists...citizens of England. :mad: :(
After all we've done for those silly Brits, this is how they repay us?? Growing terrorists in their own backyard. :mad:
Electrophil
08-10-2006, 01:08 PM
Lee and Dan's right.
Another attempt by those damn extremists. I say we vote now:
Carpet bomb England first or Pakistan?
:
Just an opinion, but I say we should really start with Canada. Hit the evil at it's source, and the rest will fall like dominos.
Just an opinion, but I say we should really start with Canada. Hit the evil at it's source, and the rest will fall like dominos.
hey, i like where you're head's at.
canada it is..burn maple leaf burn!!!!!!!! :p
Earthworm
08-10-2006, 01:22 PM
Just an opinion, but I say we should really start with Canada. Hit the evil at it's source, and the rest will fall like dominos.Haha, first you've got to find it on the map! :D
Manarius
08-10-2006, 02:12 PM
As everyone knows the current Hezbollah organization was formed in 1982. It swore allegiance to Ayatollah Khomeni and to establish an Islamic state in Lebanon. While it has delayed its promise to establish the Islamic state---it will come in the future.Exactly. This group's goal is to expel every non-Islamic person from that area and make their own totalitarian Islamic state. They're just like Al Qaeda only that they parade around and at least tried to do things legitimately.
Al Qaeda says that they're "freedom fighters" as well...does that not make them terrorists?
Haha, first you've got to find it on the map! :D
very true. why don't you give us a hint david...where the flock is canada? by antarctica?
Earthworm
08-10-2006, 02:33 PM
very true. why don't you give us a hint david...where the flock is canada? by antarctica?Well it does get cold here.
Well it does get cold here.
thanks for the tip....FIRE ZE MISSLES!!!! :p
god i love that flash anime. :p
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php
SubaSteevo
08-10-2006, 06:00 PM
I'm glad Lee is here to bring some common sense and reality to this topic.
http://www.stuckiniowa.com/img/uploads/roflcopter7.gif
lhopp77
08-10-2006, 06:01 PM
Oh and FYI party affiliation had nothing to do with it as by the end 70 percent of the population was againt the war to some degree and funny, the democratic party has never had more than 53% registered voters in the country at one time. Supid ANTI-LIBERAL REPUBLICAN IGNORANCE doesn't help ya here. You should understand facts first before you spout from your a$$!
FYI it was $500 million. Again, your wrong or simply ignorant of the FACTS! Arvin was already getting slaughtered as this occured mid offensive. Slaughtered and the promise that money was coming so again, that had absolutely no bearing.
What statements are valid your lies and inuendos that aren't supported by the FACTS that can easily be researched at any college campus? Before one speaks they should know what they speak of. Obviously you don't!
I must have struck a nerve since you are getting very upset and resorting to insults. However, you are still wrong.
The office of the president sent a request for $500M in supplemental aid to Congress in Dec 74. Out of this $222M of it was for Cambodia and the rest for Vietnam. I went back to my personal notes from that time frame and one of the reduced options (the last option) was for $160M for Vietnam. It was turned down as were all other options by the antiwar Democrats elected to congress---called the Watergate Congress.
There were 18 NVA Divisions that moved south in the final offensive. Each division was anywhere from 8-10K troops. It is very true that the ARVN could not have defeated this army without significant US intervention. Air intervention early on (during 74) would have been adequate to stem this offensive. It would have taken massive air to slow the offensive in early 75 and resumption of the bombing of the north to force compliance with the peace accords. NO, neither China or Russia would have intervened as long as there was no ground invasion of the North.
The humiliating end result of the communists' final offensive in early 1975 is usually placed on the shoulders of a supposedly incompetent South Vietnamese military. Little mention is made of the impact our "Watergate Congress" had on both its inception and success. This Congress was elected in November 1974, only months after Nixon's resignation, and it was dominated by a fresh group of antiwar Democrats. One of the first actions of the new Congress was to vote down the supplemental appropriation that would have provided money for ammunition, spare parts and medical supplies. While the supply pipeline was adequate for most things except some ammunition---without this aid there would have been a gap with no supplies arriving during the middle of 75. This outlook was TOTALLY demoralizing for the ARVN.
While it is correct to say that the American people wearied of an ineffective national strategy as the war dragged on, they never ceased in their support for South Vietnam's war effort. As late as September 1972, a Harris survey indicated overwhelming support for continued bombing of North Vietnam (55% to 32%) and for mining North Vietnamese harbors (64% to 22%). By a margin of 74% to 11%, those polled agreed that "it is important that South Vietnam not fall into the control of the communists."
Surveys of Vietnam Vets in 1980 (Harris Poll) provided some interesting insights. 89% said they were asked to fight a war that politicians would not let them win, 91% were glad that they served their country and 74% enjoyed their time in the military. And remember---many of these were draftees.
Now as to---could the war have been won. A few interesting stats: US Killed 58K, ARVN killed 235K, NVA killed (admitted by North Vietnam) 1.4Million. The North Vietnam generals also admit that after TET of 68 that they could not recruit South Vietnam guerrillas to replace those lost and had to solely depend on their own troops. I think these stats alone reflect who was actually winning.
And yes, a war is won both militarily AND in public opinion. THAT IS WHY IT IS SCARY NOW TO SEE THE ANITWAR ELEMENT INCREASING WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY RESULT IN THE LOSS OF THE WAR ON TERROR. And yes, there really is a war on terror. Iraq is part of it. We cannot afford to lose there. (Tactics past and present could be debated---but the statements above stand)
Lee
demonsvx
08-10-2006, 06:23 PM
Is it going to take the United States having to drop a few nuclear bombs(yes I mean this) to get our point across? I think pulling our troops out of Afganistan and Iraq and drop a few of them would send the message to these clowns. Hell if I were president and KNEW where Bin Laden was I wouldnt hesitate for a second of using the nuclear option. If the rest of the world doesnt like it oh well piss on them we dont need them anyway. We always go to the aid of these "poor" countries and they turn around and screw us. Why is America struggling in healthcare,jobs,etc. when we give it away to other countries? Its about time we used our "invention" developed in the '40s instead of it wasting away in some silo. If they want a nuclear weapon so bad lets give it to them.
lhopp77
08-10-2006, 06:30 PM
On another note, it's stupid to argue about what could have/should have happened in Vietnam. Arguing that if so and so did such and such accomplishes nothing. Argue about what happened, but don't argue about what could have happened, because really you have no idea.
My only reason for really bringing up Vietnam is because of the similarities of what is happening now. We are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I bring it up because I am questioning our national resolve. We are in a war on terror and need to finish it, but the antiwar left is making that increasingly difficult. We can argue the merits of Iraq, but at the time the decision was made---it appeared to be the right one. HOWEVER, it is definitely part of the war on terror. If it was not initially (and I think it was), it definitely is now. WE MUST FINISH IT. We cannot afford to be defeated in Iraq. A defeat would be a total defeat in the war on terror and ALL terrorists and terrorist nations (read Iran, etc) will be emboldened and hold us hostage economically and militarily.
We were able to recover from the antiwar dictated loss in Vietnam, but we would not recover from this one.
Lee
shotgunslade
08-10-2006, 06:50 PM
Purely military victories are always temporary. The only way to stamp out an idea you don't like is to kill everybody who could possibly hold that idea, and keep killing them or to introduce a new idea and make it more attractive to your adversaries than the idea you don't like. That's why the kill ratios in Vietnam were irrelevant. In order to keep the "enemy" under control, you would have to maintain those kill ratios in perpetuity. I hate to bring up an old tattered phrase, but it really does boil down to the "hearts and minds" of the people. The US never won those in Vietnam. We currently aren't winning them in most of the rest of the world, either. We have a history of supporting corrupt leaders who clearly made their personal fortunes off the misery of their own people and keep their power by ruthlessly suppressing the opposition. The opposition hates us for our support of their adversaries, and when they come to power, as they always do, they view us as their enemy. Somehow, we always wind up supporting those kinds of leaders, from the Shah of Iran to General Pinochet, to Manuel Noriega to Sadam Hussein (until the last two pissed us off), You could even include the Saudi royal family in that group also.
Military junkies don't realize that the greatest weapons the US has are prosperity and MTV, both of which are better promoted by the internet than the barrel of a gun. The unfortunate thing about Lebanon is that prosperity and the reduction of poverty has been set back 20 years by this conflict, so it will remain a breeding ground for extremists. And the cultural backlash in Iran toward the West, because of this conflict, probably will set back cultural Westernization in that country by 10 years, or more. So, all this argument about who did what to whom and how many times in 1972 is pretty irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, that the war against terror is really cultural, the West actually has the advantage if it would play the game using its head rather than with its F-16 pen!$ substitutes. Unfortunately, the war in this country is cultural, too, and the neocon's and their military-industrial parasites have about as much distate for MTV as do the Islamists.
My only reason for really bringing up Vietnam is because of the similarities of what is happening now. We are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I bring it up because I am questioning our national resolve. We are in a war on terror and need to finish it, but the antiwar left is making that increasingly difficult. We can argue the merits of Iraq, but at the time the decision was made---it appeared to be the right one. HOWEVER, it is definitely part of the war on terror. If it was not initially (and I think it was), it definitely is now. WE MUST FINISH IT. We cannot afford to be defeated in Iraq. A defeat would be a total defeat in the war on terror and ALL terrorists and terrorist nations (read Iran, etc) will be emboldened and hold us hostage economically and militarily.
We were able to recover from the antiwar dictated loss in Vietnam, but we would not recover from this one.
Lee
Here here, I agree with you Lee. Feet's wet, might as well get the job done and done right.
Purely military victories are always temporary. The only way to stamp out an idea you don't like is to kill everybody who could possibly hold that idea, and keep killing them or to introduce a new idea and make it more attractive to your adversaries than the idea you don't like. That's why the kill ratios in Vietnam were irrelevant. In order to keep the "enemy" under control, you would have to maintain those kill ratios in perpetuity. I hate to bring up an old tattered phrase, but it really does boil down to the "hearts and minds" of the people. The US never won those in Vietnam. We currently aren't winning them in most of the rest of the world, either. We have a history of supporting corrupt leaders who clearly made their personal fortunes off the misery of their own people and keep their power by ruthlessly suppressing the opposition. The opposition hates us for our support of their adversaries, and when they come to power, as they always do, they view us as their enemy. Somehow, we always wind up supporting those kinds of leaders, from the Shah of Iran to General Pinochet, to Manuel Noriega to Sadam Hussein (until the last two pissed us off), You could even include the Saudi royal family in that group also.
Military junkies don't realize that the greatest weapons the US has are prosperity and MTV, both of which are better promoted by the internet than the barrel of a gun. The unfortunate thing about Lebanon is that prosperity and the reduction of poverty has been set back 20 years by this conflict, so it will remain a breeding ground for extremists. And the cultural backlash in Iran toward the West, because of this conflict, probably will set back cultural Westernization in that country by 10 years, or more. So, all this argument about who did what to whom and how many times in 1972 is pretty irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, that the war against terror is really cultural, the West actually has the advantage if it would play the game using its head rather than with its F-16 pen!$ substitutes. Unfortunately, the war in this country is cultural, too, and the neocon's and their military-industrial parasites have about as much distate for MTV as do the Islamists.
+1 agreed :D
lhopp77
08-10-2006, 08:00 PM
Purely military victories are always temporary. The only way to stamp out an idea you don't like is to kill everybody who could possibly hold that idea, and keep killing them or to introduce a new idea and make it more attractive to your adversaries than the idea you don't like. That's why the kill ratios in Vietnam were irrelevant. In order to keep the "enemy" under control, you would have to maintain those kill ratios in perpetuity. I hate to bring up an old tattered phrase, but it really does boil down to the "hearts and minds" of the people. The US never won those in Vietnam. We currently aren't winning them in most of the rest of the world, either. We have a history of supporting corrupt leaders who clearly made their personal fortunes off the misery of their own people and keep their power by ruthlessly suppressing the opposition. The opposition hates us for our support of their adversaries, and when they come to power, as they always do, they view us as their enemy. Somehow, we always wind up supporting those kinds of leaders, from the Shah of Iran to General Pinochet, to Manuel Noriega to Sadam Hussein (until the last two pissed us off), You could even include the Saudi royal family in that group also.
Military junkies don't realize that the greatest weapons the US has are prosperity and MTV, both of which are better promoted by the internet than the barrel of a gun. The unfortunate thing about Lebanon is that prosperity and the reduction of poverty has been set back 20 years by this conflict, so it will remain a breeding ground for extremists. And the cultural backlash in Iran toward the West, because of this conflict, probably will set back cultural Westernization in that country by 10 years, or more. So, all this argument about who did what to whom and how many times in 1972 is pretty irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, that the war against terror is really cultural, the West actually has the advantage if it would play the game using its head rather than with its F-16 pen!$ substitutes. Unfortunately, the war in this country is cultural, too, and the neocon's and their military-industrial parasites have about as much distate for MTV as do the Islamists.
In retrospect or with 20/20 hindsight, some of what you say is correct, but then again much is wrong. Like your reference to the "hearts and minds" in Vietnam. I submit that we, in fact, did win most of the hearts and minds. Americans were very well liked in South Vietnam. If you read my earlier post you will see where I said that the North Vietnamese generals admitted that after 1968 they were not able to recruit more Viet Cong (SVN communists). That would indicate to me that we had won the hearts battle.
Now, as to who we did or did not support in the past. That is a perfect example of hindsight. In nearly all of the cases that you reference--at the time the decision was made to support that regime---it was the very best alternative. Like, now for example--our support for the Saudi royal family---while it is not the best solution it is the only solution AT THIS TIME. The alternative is more Islamic Fascists---or the likes of Osama.
While you may not like the military----a strong military threat is THE ONLY thing that influences many countries or political systems (leaders). We tried the semi-pacifist role after WWI and where did it get us? Damn near lost us our country and our way of life.
Can we do better in understanding other countries and political systems? YES. While I agree with Bush that democracies are better in reducing internal problems and breeding of terrorists----this does not mean that it needs to be our type of democracy. That was a problem we had in the far east we wanted to impose our type of government on people. Even our definition of corruption is not necessarily the accepted standard of corruption in many of the Asian countries. Many things that we consider corrupt activities are in fact considered "spoils of the winner" or things even expected of the winner. Like hiring his family and friends, etc.
I will cite and example of difference in thinking---I was driving my car in Saigon, in my lane and within a safe speed (below posted speed). A guy on a motorcycle on my right whipped a quick left in front of me. I was totally unable to miss him and clipped the back of his motorcycle knocking him over. It tore up his motorcyle and gave him a knot on the head and a bunch of road rash. It was witnessed by a Vietnamese policeman on the corner.
After discussing the whole situation---the policeman entirely agreed that it was the motorcyclists fault. His solution??? I should pay the motorcyclist 1000$P ( approximately $3). I was confused and did not initially understand. The rationale behind this decision? IT was his fault---however, neither me or my car were hurt. I was blessed by this---so therefore I should make a small "solatium" payment to him for my good fortune. I paid and everyone was happy.
Unfortunately we do not live in a utopian world.
Lee
shotgunslade
08-10-2006, 08:40 PM
Lee:
You're such a dinosaur, and I mean that not as an insult, just as your calling me a Bleeding heart liberal was not meant to be an insult. You are smothered in a 19th Centurary Real-Politik sensibility that is completely irrelevant today. The war against terrorism isn't fought with B-52's carpet-bombing. It's not fought with Agent Orange and Swift Boats, and Phantom's. It's not measured in kill-ratios. We are fighting against many many cells composed of at most a couple of dozen individuals who so passionately hate our culture that they are willing to give their lives to kill a hundred or so of us. How do you fight that? Not by going to some second or third world country, and blowing it into gravel, and at the same time creating monumental motivation for new recruits to don dynamite vests and walk into crowded buses or terminals. If anything, high kill ratios probably mean that the terrorism motivation quotient has been significantly raised. Do you intend to strike at their command and control by shutting down the internet. To disrupt their source of weapons, are you going to remove acetone, hydrogen peroxide and dilute hydrochoric acid from the hardware store shelves? How do you calculate your big kill ratios, when nobody wears uniforms. (Although, difficulty in identifying who was who certainly didn't deter the body counters in Vietnam from identifying every corpse who wasn't American as a dead Viet Cong.)
The only way to defeat terrorists is to remove their motivation for destructive self-immolation. To do that, we have to quit our perpetual siding with their local oppressors, who keep them in ignorance and poverty. We usually do that because American and international companies have significant economic interest in keeping the repressive political status quo, so they they can extract and export all of the local natural resources with very little local overhead. And you don't export democracy by forcing it down people's throats at the point of a gun. You empower them to find it themselves. You know, Vietnam, in a few years, is going to be a representative emergent second world capitalist power, likely much more quickly than if the US backed oligarchs had defeated the North Vietnamese.
A strong military certainly is necessary, but it should be used in the right way. The Bush administration hasn't a clue as to how the military should be used. Probably because most of them were never in it, or at least only partially fulfiled their stateside commitment. It is a deterrent. It is a late, if not last, resort. It is a precision tool, and it is definitely not a mechansim for exporting democracy.
By the way, you accuse me of exploiting hindsight, if what I have said is hindsight, what is your excruciatingly detailed exegesis of military and political trivia in Vietnam and the Middle East? All that study and rationalization and once again "We're waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the Big Fool says 'Push on'" Thought you would enjoy some of that defeatist propaganda from the '60's. Still as relevant today as it was back then. I also enjoy listening to a little Phil Ochs from time to time. He was as right on then as he would be today if he were still with us.
Wish me Happy Birthday. I'll be 58 Saturday.
Lee:
You're such a dinosaur, and I mean that not as an insult, just as your calling me a Bleeding heart liberal was not meant to be an insult. You are smothered in a 19th Centurary Real-Politik sensibility that is completely irrelevant today. The war against terrorism isn't fought with B-52's carpet-bombing. It's not fought with Agent Orange and Swift Boats, and Phantom's. It's not measured in kill-ratios. We are fighting against many many cells composed of at most a couple of dozen individuals who so passionately hate our culture that they are willing to give their lives to kill a hundred or so of us. How do you fight that? Not by going to some second or third world country, and blowing it into gravel, and at the same time creating monumental motivation for new recruits to don dynamite vests and walk into crowded buses or terminals. If anything, high kill ratios probably mean that the terrorism motivation quotient has been significantly raised. Do you intend to strike at their command and control by shutting down the internet. To disrupt their source of weapons, are you going to remove acetone, hydrogen peroxide and dilute hydrochoric acid from the hardware store shelves? How do you calculate your big kill ratios, when nobody wears uniforms. (Although, difficulty in identifying who was who certainly didn't deter the body counters in Vietnam from identifying every corpse who wasn't American as a dead Viet Cong.)
The only way to defeat terrorists is to remove their motivation for destructive self-immolation. To do that, we have to quit our perpetual siding with their local oppressors, who keep them in ignorance and poverty. We usually do that because American and international companies have significant economic interest in keeping the repressive political status quo, so they they can extract and export all of the local natural resources with very little local overhead. And you don't export democracy by forcing it down people's throats at the point of a gun. You empower them to find it themselves. You know, Vietnam, in a few years, is going to be a representative emergent second world capitalist power, likely much more quickly than if the US backed oligarchs had defeated the North Vietnamese.
A strong military certainly is necessary, but it should be used in the right way. The Bush administration hasn't a clue as to how the military should be used. Probably because most of them were never in it, or at least only partially fulfiled their stateside commitment. It is a deterrent. It is a late, if not last, resort. It is a precision tool, and it is definitely not a mechansim for exporting democracy.
By the way, you accuse me of exploiting hindsight, if what I have said is hindsight, what is your excruciatingly detailed exegesis of military and political trivia in Vietnam and the Middle East? All that study and rationalization and once again "We're waist deep in the Big Muddy, and the Big Fool says 'Push on'" Thought you would enjoy some of that defeatist propaganda from the '60's. Still as relevant today as it was back then. I also enjoy listening to a little Phil Ochs from time to time. He was as right on then as he would be today if he were still with us.
Wish me Happy Birthday. I'll be 58 Saturday.
Happy Birthday 58th Slade. :)
Excellent points ya 'bleeding heart liberal'. ;)
+eleventybillion!!11!! agreed on points.
lhopp77
08-10-2006, 09:48 PM
We are fighting against many many cells composed of at most a couple of dozen individuals who so passionately hate our culture that they are willing to give their lives to kill a hundred or so of us. How do you fight that? Not by going to some second or third world country, and blowing it into gravel, and at the same time creating monumental motivation for new recruits to don dynamite vests and walk into crowded buses or terminals.
The only way to defeat terrorists is to remove their motivation for destructive self-immolation. To do that, we have to quit our perpetual siding with their local oppressors, who keep them in ignorance and poverty. We usually do that because American and international companies have significant economic interest in keeping the repressive political status quo, so they they can extract and export all of the local natural resources with very little local overhead. And you don't export democracy by forcing it down people's throats at the point of a gun. You empower them to find it themselves.
A strong military certainly is necessary, but it should be used in the right way. The Bush administration hasn't a clue as to how the military should be used. Probably because most of them were never in it, or at least only partially fulfiled their stateside commitment. It is a deterrent. It is a late, if not last, resort. It is a precision tool, and it is definitely not a mechansim for exporting democracy.
Wish me Happy Birthday. I'll be 58 Saturday.
First---Happy Birthday--you old bleeding heart liberal. :p
Second---the Vietnam body count fiasco was a politically driven standard to show results. It should never have been used. I personally resisted it would only reported actuals and not "suspecteds" based on blood pools or trails. My gross killied figures on Vietnam above were to prove a point as to who was winning. Obviously, North Vietnam could not haves sustained those levels of casualties much longer had we "stayed our course".
Now---you are full of criticism of the military, the neocons and the Bush administration.
Remembering that the attack on the US on 9/11 was prior to any invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, that our presence in Lebanon in the 80's was to help to Lebanese people, yet we were still attacked.
You are NOW President!!!!!
What is your solution to keep us from being attack in the future?? What would you do about our relationship with the Saudi regime? What about Iran? What about Iraq? What about Darfur---another Islamic problem? What actions should we take to prevent things like in the news right now in the UK? Homegrown terrorists wanting to attack our airplanes and of course all people on board them from many different countries?
Remember that due to the Bush administrations actions approximately 80 percent of Al Qaida has command and control capabilities have been eliminated.
Remember also, that we are nonbelievers, infidels, and a majority of our population are hated Christians and that will not change and neither will our support for Israel.
Also, right now Iran is bordering on development of a nuclear weapon and they are the foremost support of radical Islamic movements.
Would you repeal the Patriot Act????
So, what is/are your solution(s)??????????
Give some real and achievable solutions---not generalized utopian dreams.
Lee
First---Happy Birthday--you old bleeding heart liberal. :p
Second---the Vietnam body count fiasco was a politically driven standard to show results. It should never have been used. I personally resisted it would only reported actuals and not "suspecteds" based on blood pools or trails. My gross killied figures on Vietnam above were to prove a point as to who was winning. Obviously, North Vietnam could not haves sustained those levels of casualties much longer had we "stayed our course".
Now---you are full of criticism of the military, the neocons and the Bush administration.
Remembering that the attack on the US on 9/11 was prior to any invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, that our presence in Lebanon in the 80's was to help to Lebanese people, yet we were still attacked.
You are NOW President!!!!!
What is your solution to keep us from being attack in the future?? What would you do about our relationship with the Saudi regime? What about Iran? What about Iraq? What about Darfur---another Islamic problem? What actions should we take to prevent things like in the news right now in the UK? Homegrown terrorists wanting to attack our airplanes and of course all people on board them from many different countries?
Remember that due to the Bush administrations actions approximately 80 percent of Al Qaida has command and control capabilities have been eliminated.
Remember also, that we are nonbelievers, infidels, and a majority of our population are hated Christians and that will not change and neither will our support for Israel.
Also, right now Iran is bordering on development of a nuclear weapon and they are the foremost support of radical Islamic movements.
Would you repeal the Patriot Act????
So, what is/are your solution(s)??????????
Give some real and achievable solutions---not generalized utopian dreams.
Lee
bad example. if shotgunslade was the president, 9/11 may not have occurred. :)
SilverSpear
08-11-2006, 12:18 AM
More pure fiction from Danny.
There may have been something called "Hizbullah" 400 years ago, but the current organization has nothing to do with that one except possibly name.
As everyone knows the current Hezbollah organization was formed in 1982. It swore allegiance to Ayatollah Khomeni and to establish an Islamic state in Lebanon. While it has delayed its promise to establish the Islamic state---it will come in the future.
Quit deluding yourself Danny and quit trying to mislead readers here that may not know the REAL facts.
Just the mere fact that you can go out on your balcony and take pictures of the bombed out Hezbollah areas is proof that the Israelis are being very selective in there bombing. We can see satellite pictures of the damaged areas and they are definitely specifically targeted areas and not the same as the Hezbollah rockets that are purposely aimed at all civilian areas. If they were better, there would be severe damage in Israeli cities and many hundreds of civilian deaths particularly after firing over 3000 rockets and trying to hit the city with a drone loaded with explosives. Which of course was shot down by Israeli aircraft. Did your news show pictures of it being shot down???? I doubt it.
Lee
Hahaha, you also cannot read well??? Shame on you old timer!!! I said the Shiites existed in Lebanon from 400 years ago, and the Shiite "Hizbullah" was formed in 1982... Hizbullah are very aware that creating an Islamic state is out of the question... from where you get all those info??? I have never heard of that... are you on WEED? :D
As for the Israeli media, can you deny that the Jews are "blackening" their media from certain places where rockets are hitting??
They only show you where bombs fell and hit civilians, but did they show us pics where they fell and hit military bases?? where did those 3500 bombs go to??
82 Israeli civilians were killed during this war (Israeli TV) whereas more than 1100 Lebanese civilians were reported killed not counting those who are still under rubble and the others missing because they were dead bodies and eaten by DOGs... DO YOU STILL WANT A GREATER PICTURE OF THE TRAGEDY???
WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS NOW??? :mad: :mad:
P.S: Stop bullsh!tting people with crap :mad:
SubaSteevo
08-11-2006, 07:43 AM
You are NOW President!!!!!
What is your solution to keep us from being attack in the future?? What would you do about our relationship with the Saudi regime? What about Iran? What about Iraq? What about Darfur---another Islamic problem? What actions should we take to prevent things like in the news right now in the UK? Homegrown terrorists wanting to attack our airplanes and of course all people on board them from many different countries?
Step 1: Become president
Step 2: ????
Step 3: World peace!
lhopp77
08-11-2006, 10:08 AM
Hahaha, you also cannot read well??? Shame on you old timer!!! I said the Shiites existed in Lebanon from 400 years ago, and the Shiite "Hizbullah" was formed in 1982... Hizbullah are very aware that creating an Islamic state is out of the question... from where you get all those info??? I have never heard of that... are you on WEED? :D
As for the Israeli media, can you deny that the Jews are "blackening" their media from certain places where rockets are hitting??
They only show you where bombs fell and hit civilians, but did they show us pics where they fell and hit military bases?? where did those 3500 bombs go to??
82 Israeli civilians were killed during this war (Israeli TV) whereas more than 1100 Lebanese civilians were reported killed not counting those who are still under rubble and the others missing because they were dead bodies and eaten by DOGs... DO YOU STILL WANT A GREATER PICTURE OF THE TRAGEDY???
WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS NOW??? :mad: :mad:
I read well, but your post definitely indicated that Hezbollah had existed for 400 years and only formed their militia in 75-82. I have no argument with how long you say the Shiites have existed.
I do not deny that Israel is censoring some of the news by way of precluding real time posting of live pictures of rockets strikes. Duh, that is only common sense. It would be very easy for Hezbollah to adjust fire simply through viewing available TV realtime coverage.
And the vast majority of those 3500 rockets landed in unpopulated areas and fields. They are largely ineffective other than as a terror weapon. The bulk of them are actually WWII design. Hardly, hi-tech.
Even the UN has now come out and publically chastised Hezbollah for wrapping themselves with civilians, thus causing most of the civilian casualties.
And yes, Hezbollah did pledge in 85 to make Lebanon an Islamic state. While they have publically backed off of that pledge and have not taken military action to make it happen---it is slowly happening peacefully. They have figured out that they can do it through the election process. You are all very gullible----where do you REALLY think it is heading???? Obviously to a Islamic state controlled by Hezbollah. Get your heads out of the dark places.
Israel is NO threat to Lebanon. It WANTS a free and peaceful democratic Lebanese state, but NOT an Islamic state.
Lee
b3lha
08-11-2006, 12:32 PM
It's interesting to see how people quickly take sides in a discussion such as this, and are prepared to argue in support of their chosen side. Whether they would be prepared to pick up an AK47 and fight for their chosen side is another matter.
I wouldn't back either side. They are BOTH terrorists.
Hisbullah have been firing rockets into Israeli towns and have killed maybe 100 Israelis. They need to be stopped for sure and the Lebanese government should be the people to do it. But it's not going to be easy.
Israel has been systematically flattening Lebanese towns with bombs dropped from aircraft and has deliberately killed well over 1000 Lebanese civilians. They need to face a war crimes tribunal.
I keep reading this bull**** that that the civilians are only being killed because Hisbullah are hiding amongst them. Like somehow that makes it Hisbullahs fault that Israel are targeting the civilians. The concept of a human shield is that you can't shoot through it, but the Israelis don't seem to care about that. They are bombing entire neighbourhoods, killing dozens of innocent people in the hope that a few Hisbullah will get killed in the process. Just look at the pictures Danny posted.
Imagine that a terrorist was suspected of living in your home town. What is the better response, to send in some special forces to kick down his door and nail him, or to bomb the whole town flat and then pick through the hundreds of bodies to see if he was home at the time.
I can well understand why Danny and the other Lebanese people, would be pretty mad at Israel for the atrocity they are commiting and why they would be sympathic to Hisbullah who are seen to be fighting back. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" as the saying goes.
b3lha
08-11-2006, 12:44 PM
And yes, Hezbollah did pledge in 85 to make Lebanon an Islamic state. While they have publically backed off l that pledge and have not taken military action to make it happen---it is slowly happening peacefully. They have figured out that they can do it through the election process. You are all very gullible----where do you REALLY think it is heading???? Obviously to a Islamic state controlled by Hezbollah. Get your heads out of the dark places.
Obviously in a predominantly Muslim country, the elected government is very likely to be Islamic. That is how democracy is supposed to work. Majority rules. :rolleyes: Do you understand that "Islamic" does not mean "evil"?
Israel is NO threat to Lebanon. It WANTS a free and peaceful democratic Lebanese state, but NOT an Islamic state.
That is not Israel's call to make. In what definition of democracy does the country next door get a veto on who can be elected? :rolleyes: Maybe Canada or Mexico should insist that you elect a democrat next time. :p
lhopp77
08-11-2006, 01:56 PM
Hisbullah have been firing rockets into Israeli towns and have killed maybe 100 Israelis. They need to be stopped for sure and the Lebanese government should be the people to do it. But it's not going to be easy.
Israel has been systematically flattening Lebanese towns with bombs dropped from aircraft and has deliberately killed well over 1000 Lebanese civilians. They need to face a war crimes tribunal.
I keep reading this bull**** that that the civilians are only being killed because Hisbullah are hiding amongst them. Like somehow that makes it Hisbullahs fault that Israel are targeting the civilians. The concept of a human shield is that you can't shoot through it, but the Israelis don't seem to care about that. They are bombing entire neighbourhoods, killing dozens of innocent people in the hope that a few Hisbullah will get killed in the process. Just look at the pictures Danny posted.
All I can say about the above is for you to ask older Brits that lived in London during WWII when the German V2 rockets were falling on them. Did they feel that carpet bombing the German cities was a disproportionate use of power???? Did they think it was unfair????
Only other comment----Use of human shields is a gross violation of any standard of warfare.
A very interesting sidelight observation on our US news broadcasting that has been going on for the last 3 hours. CNN and MSNBC are extensively been reporting on the UK terrorist story and the draft UN Resolution on the Israeli-Lebanon situation. They have NOT been reporting on the Israeli ground offensive that has been launched and the Israeli objections to the weak terms of the resolution.
They have reported briefly that the voting on the resolution has been delayed, but have not provided facts as to why this happened.
I would be ashamed if the US tried to force Israel to accept the current terms of a Chapter 6 Resolution versus a Chapter 7 Resolution. Other provisions are also not fair, but the 6 versus 7 is the most critical and the others could be negotiated.
The resolution as now drafted would simply allow the whole affair to happen again in the near future with Israel being in a weaker position in the future.
Lee
b3lha
08-11-2006, 02:08 PM
All I can say about the above is for you to ask older Brits that lived in London during WWII when the German V2 rockets were falling on them. Did they feel that carpet bombing the German cities was a disproportionate use of power???? Did they think it was unfair????
But the carpet bombing did nothing to stop the V2 rockets. The rockets were stopped by the French resistance (mainly a guy called Michel Hollard) that identified the launching sites so that the British forces could destroy them.
Only other comment----Use of human shields is a gross violation of any standard of warfare.
Yes. Of course it is. But that doesn't make it OK to kill the shield in order to hit the target.
A very interesting sidelight observation on our US news broadcasting that has been going on for the last 3 hours. CNN and MSNBC are extensively been reporting on the UK terrorist story and the draft UN Resolution on the Israeli-Lebanon situation. They have NOT been reporting on the Israeli ground offensive that has been launched and the Israeli objections to the weak terms of the resolution.
They have reported briefly that the voting on the resolution has been delayed, but have not provided facts as to why this happened.
I would be ashamed if the US tried to force Israel to accept the current terms of a Chapter 6 Resolution versus a Chapter 7 Resolution. Other provisions are also not fair, but the 6 versus 7 is the most critical and the others could be negotiated.
The resolution as now drafted would simply allow the whole affair to happen again in the near future with Israel being in a weaker position in the future.
Lee
Our channel 5 news are reporting that Israel are likely to accept the latest proposals.
lhopp77
08-11-2006, 04:56 PM
But the carpet bombing did nothing to stop the V2 rockets. The rockets were stopped by the French resistance (mainly a guy called Michel Hollard) that identified the launching sites so that the British forces could destroy them.
I didn't ask if it was effective. Go back and answer my question. :)
Lee
lhopp77
08-11-2006, 05:01 PM
It appears that neither side got everything that it wanted, but such is diplomacy. It will be interesting to read the final resolution after it is passed. From the Fox news reading of supposed excerpts, it does seem that Israel will get what it wanted mosted. A protected border manned by the Lebanese Army, disarmed Hezbollah and monitoring of Syrian border to detect any attempts at rearming them. Like I said though, I will only trust the real provisions after I read them.
I am a bit apprehensive about the French Army protecting and enforcing anything. :rolleyes:
SilverSpear
08-14-2006, 12:37 AM
I read well, but your post definitely indicated that Hezbollah had existed for 400 years and only formed their militia in 75-82. I have no argument with how long you say the Shiites have existed.
I do not deny that Israel is censoring some of the news by way of precluding real time posting of live pictures of rockets strikes. Duh, that is only common sense. It would be very easy for Hezbollah to adjust fire simply through viewing available TV realtime coverage.
And the vast majority of those 3500 rockets landed in unpopulated areas and fields. They are largely ineffective other than as a terror weapon. The bulk of them are actually WWII design. Hardly, hi-tech.
Even the UN has now come out and publically chastised Hezbollah for wrapping themselves with civilians, thus causing most of the civilian casualties.
And yes, Hezbollah did pledge in 85 to make Lebanon an Islamic state. While they have publically backed off of that pledge and have not taken military action to make it happen---it is slowly happening peacefully. They have figured out that they can do it through the election process. You are all very gullible----where do you REALLY think it is heading???? Obviously to a Islamic state controlled by Hezbollah. Get your heads out of the dark places.
Israel is NO threat to Lebanon. It WANTS a free and peaceful democratic Lebanese state, but NOT an Islamic state.
Lee
We all know that Israel is seeing where missiles are being launched by Satellites, spy probes and through their Apaches and can hit accurate targets easily... I have always asked WHY they are targeting civilians and have as cause as Hizbullah hiding behind them... Because wars in the Middle East are because of religious nature, I partially found my answer in the Torah which Israeli believe and follow. It has been told that they allow the killing of Women and Children but still I have to find it to confirm it...
As for the Hizbullah rockets, I heard disturbing news from relatives of my GF's in Israel. A US report was "injected" in the Israeli press stating that in Israel there are till 7/8/2006, 350 killed Israeli soldiers, 787 wounded. As for the tanks and others, 131 burned tanks, 56 severely crippled, and 95 completely destroyed Humvys and other military cars. The report also state that Israeli depleted 90% of its present missiles and bombs and had to unlock their reserves and use them (so they are spending a lot). And what is disturbing in the report is that US military personnel participated in the attacks, especially flying and bombing in F-16's.... and a highly ranked US officer and some soldiers were killed in the field and they were returned home with the cause of being killed in Iraq. 3 weeks ago, Hizbullah militants were able to nail 4 highly ranked officers in "Maroun el Ras" in southern Lebanon, of which 2 were Mussad, one highly ranked israeli and the fourth may be that highly ranked US officer. There is also talk that one of the ADDITIONAL prisoners that Hizbullah caught in battles is a US soldier :rolleyes: ...So Lee, if you think that those missiles either hit mountains or deserts and populated areas in Israel, you are so naive and ignorant...
Also I just wish you stop hearing BS from the media. Yes in the eightys, Hizbullah was asking for an Islamic Lebanon, and till 2004 they wanted to go to Israel and wipe out the Jews to claim back the ruins of Solomon's temple where their prophet prayed... but in 2005 and 2006 the Christian Leader (Michael Aoun) managed to get Hisbullah's Leader Hassan Nasrallah to sign a treaty in a CHURCH :eek: (a shiite in a church???), obligeing him to set as standards Lebanon and only Lebanon (and the hell with Israel), Hizbullah's weapons never be used internally (civil war) and be used solely to opress outside military interfierence (either from Israel or Syria...). Many points are also included, but those are the major ones...
You know what?? Israelis believe Hasan Nasrallah more than they believe Ehud Olmert. In this war, all what Hasan Nasrallah said, became true. At first Olmert said he will conquer Lebanon in 3 days, then said it will take a week, then 2 weeks, then a month, then.... also he said they will claim 2 Kms in southern Lebanon, then till the Litani river, then 7 kms, then again the Litani river... they dismissed the head of their military ops in northern Israel, then.... Hahahaha, it seems israeli are floating in their SH!T...
Lee, again... stop reading and hearing BS from where you are...
SilverSpear
08-14-2006, 12:47 AM
A very interesting sidelight observation on our US news broadcasting that has been going on for the last 3 hours. CNN and MSNBC are extensively been reporting on the UK terrorist story and the draft UN Resolution on the Israeli-Lebanon situation. They have NOT been reporting on the Israeli ground offensive that has been launched and the Israeli objections to the weak terms of the resolution.
They have reported briefly that the voting on the resolution has been delayed, but have not provided facts as to why this happened.
First of all, my first guess for the terrorists in UK, they are Al Quaeda people. I remember their leader Ayman Zawahiri going on TV 2 weeks ago stating that Al Quaeda will not stay still in this war, they will do some action to support Hizbullah. As you all know Al Quaeda are Sunnites and there was a point in time where they threatened to Kill Hasan Nasrallah because he signed a peace treaty with the Lebanese Christian Leader Michael Aoun and he didn't state anymore he will be invading Israel and slaughtering all Jews... Well Hizbullah leaders did not accept what Zawahiri stated because they want no relation to him nor to the Quaeda... this is just not their way on doing wars.
And Lee, if your common sense allows it, you will find out that voting to the UN resolution has been delayed JUST TO GIVE ISRAEL MORE TIME TO DESTROY LEBANON AND KILL CIVILIANS... Cheezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !! Use you brains from time to time :D
SilverSpear
08-14-2006, 12:59 AM
It appears that neither side got everything that it wanted, but such is diplomacy. It will be interesting to read the final resolution after it is passed. From the Fox news reading of supposed excerpts, it does seem that Israel will get what it wanted mosted. A protected border manned by the Lebanese Army, disarmed Hezbollah and monitoring of Syrian border to detect any attempts at rearming them. Like I said though, I will only trust the real provisions after I read them.
I am a bit apprehensive about the French Army protecting and enforcing anything. :rolleyes:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa, man you make me laugh!!! between the first draft and the current one, Lebanon SCR*WED ISRAEL !!!
Israel wanted to weaken Hizbullah, destroy them, disarm them, even wiping out what is known as Hizbullah before.... Lee, what does the current resolution states about Hizbullah now??? DO you dare answering it??? :D :D
Tsipi Livni said in person, there is no army in the World can disarm Hizbullah by force... :D
Concerning Shebaa farms, well Kofi Anan stated he will be presenting a report about Shebaa in a period of one month.... and we all know that the latter has already a formal paper from Syria stating it is Lebanese and not Syrian... Also who told you that the Lebanese Army will be deployed in the South? Can't Hizbullah just wear Lebanese Army clothing and go there? :rolleyes: :D No country weakens itself especially against the Backstabbing Israel.
Put something in your mind, Hizbullah will never disarm, until Shebaa case is clear, Lebanese prisoners are released and everything restored in its order.
WE GOT MORE FROM THAT RESOLUTION MORE THAN ISRAEL DID ;)
lhopp77
08-14-2006, 08:41 AM
WE GOT MORE FROM THAT RESOLUTION MORE THAN ISRAEL DID ;)
Last time I checked (5 minutes ago) the IDF is still occupying most of the high ground positions in Lebanon from the Latani River south to the Israeli border. (30,000 of them) :rolleyes:
If an American (not a dual citizen Israeli-American) was captured---put him on TV like the captured Hezbollah prisoners have been. Did your TV show the Hezbollah captured prisoner that was involved in the initial incident that started this---admitting that he had been trained in Iran along with hundreds other terrorists?
Americans flying IDF airplanes???---you are smoking wacky weed. The IDF does not need American pilots--they do a great job by themselves.
Your IDF and total Israeli killed figures are way off as are the equipment destroyed data. Your people either have problems counting or have bad vision---actually probably both. A total of 159 Israeli were killed to include military and civilians. Publish the names of the IDF killed like the IDF published many known names of Hezbollah terrorists KIA.
Lee
DanSVX94
08-14-2006, 08:46 AM
I partially found my answer in the Torah which Israeli believe and follow. It has been told that they allow the killing of Women and Children but still I have to find it to confirm it...
OF COURSE YOU STILL HAVE TO FIND IT!
And what is disturbing in the report is that US military personnel participated in the attacks, especially flying and bombing in F-16's....
I HAVE SOME PRIME (SWAMP) LAND IN FLORIDA FOR SALE, AND IF YOU PAYPAL ME SOME MONEY I'LL THROW IN THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE TOO.
Yes in the eightys, Hizbullah was asking for an Islamic Lebanon, and till 2004 they wanted to go to Israel and wipe out the Jews to claim back the ruins of Solomon's temple where their prophet prayed...
WOW, AND IN TWO YEARS THEY BECOME SO ENLIGHTENED.
Danny, your signature supports using terrorism. Your statement also can be easily read as condoning 9/11.
Are there no Islamo-fascist sites for you to post your claptrap on?
Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Stop Attacking Muslim Countries !!!
I prefer the "Stop blowing yourself up in peaceful civillian communities/airplanes/subways/restaraunts/places of business method".
I prefer the "Stop blowing yourself up in peaceful civillian communities/airplanes/subways/restaraunts/places of business method".
I prefer:
Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Take out the human element!!!
Danny's suggestion is impossible and unrealistic, while yours addresses the underdog terrorism but not worldwide peace. :p
demonsvx
08-14-2006, 07:05 PM
The problem will continue as long as one side sees that they are "entitled" to the holy land. In the past I had planned on visiting Israel and other areas of the Middle East but forget it now. All of these problems are rooted in religion-I hate to say this but it is, in my opinion, true. The Jews against the Muslims,Muslims against the Christians and so on its ridiculous. I wonder what this world would be like WITHOUT religion, Im not saying I dont believe in God or a higher power because as a "civilized" race we need it. We are far from being civilized, fighting over a piece of desert because one religion is better than the other is stupid.
sorceror
08-14-2006, 07:44 PM
Danny, your signature supports using terrorism. Your statement also can be easily read as condoning 9/11.
Are there no Islamo-fascist sites for you to post your claptrap on?
Nicely said, DanSVX94. It is becoming obvious he may be one who has attacked innocent people.
Danny, everything you say leads to prejudice and dishonor. Can you not possibly see how dishonorable it is to put your very own children into harms way? Please try to understand. By your own post on the other thread there are 1.5 million Hezbollah. Why do you think Israel bombs your icecream parlour? Could it be because the owners are hiding Hezbollah?
Could it be because all of lebenon is hiding Hezbollah?
Trevor
08-14-2006, 07:47 PM
The problem will continue as long as one side sees that they are "entitled" to the holy land. In the past I had planned on visiting Israel and other areas of the Middle East but forget it now. All of these problems are rooted in religion-I hate to say this but it is, in my opinion, true. The Jews against the Muslims,Muslims against the Christians and so on its ridiculous. I wonder what this world would be like WITHOUT religion, Im not saying I dont believe in God or a higher power because as a "civilized" race we need it. We are far from being civilized, fighting over a piece of desert because one religion is better than the other is stupid.
Agreed, but a higher power? Yes sort of.:confused: "God" can only dwell in the minds of men. "God" should be upheld as simply the essence of goodness. Here endeth ---- :)
sorceror
08-14-2006, 07:52 PM
What's really sad? Sunnis and Shiites killing each other. How could reasonable human beings with a universal conscience think of such things? They are so archaic in their thinking they would kill others of their own religion as well as anyone else. FANATICISM HAS NO PLACE IN THE 21ST CENTURY!
You see all of you, don't you, there is a universal conscience. Call it God and put whatever name you want to it. The fact is the universal conscience is the conscience of all peaceful human beings.
I prefer:
Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Take out the human element!!!
Danny's suggestion is impossible and unrealistic, while yours addresses the underdog terrorism but not worldwide peace. :p
I was only going to the extreme Danny did. :p:p
SilverSpear
08-15-2006, 11:56 PM
Last time I checked (5 minutes ago) the IDF is still occupying most of the high ground positions in Lebanon from the Latani River south to the Israeli border. (30,000 of them) :rolleyes:
If an American (not a dual citizen Israeli-American) was captured---put him on TV like the captured Hezbollah prisoners have been. Did your TV show the Hezbollah captured prisoner that was involved in the initial incident that started this---admitting that he had been trained in Iran along with hundreds other terrorists?
Americans flying IDF airplanes???---you are smoking wacky weed. The IDF does not need American pilots--they do a great job by themselves.
Your IDF and total Israeli killed figures are way off as are the equipment destroyed data. Your people either have problems counting or have bad vision---actually probably both. A total of 159 Israeli were killed to include military and civilians. Publish the names of the IDF killed like the IDF published many known names of Hezbollah terrorists KIA.
Lee
What? you were here???????? hahaha, the Israelis never got to the Litani River. In fact Israeli lost this war and could only cause a reach in Christian and Sunni villages and never in Shiites villages. All the reached ones are on the Lebanese/Israeli border and they are numbered to around 15. Furthermore Olmert is facing many problems in Israel.
I didn't confirm an American was captured, neither I confirmed that US pilots were flying planes nor the losses. I was just telling you what the Israeli press got as inside info from a US report.
It seems you read diagonally :D :D
Danny, your signature supports using terrorism. Your statement also can be easily read as condoning 9/11.
Are there no Islamo-fascist sites for you to post your claptrap on?
Is that what you understand from my signature? Comeeeeeeeeee onnnnnnnnn, I think you are smarter than this.... Stop twisting things as you wish, tell me what is the root cause then for terrorsit attacks???
I prefer:
Want WorldWide Peace & No Terrorism Anymore ??? Take out the human element!!!
Danny's suggestion is impossible and unrealistic, while yours addresses the underdog terrorism but not worldwide peace. :p
Why unrealistic??? JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE !!!
Following their culture, those guys are willing to kill themsleves for a cause... Logically speaking, can you stop them all the time???
People, I am not defending Muslims, we killed each other before and we still hate one another. But I am really sick from wars all the time. I spend most of my life fleeing from one house to another escaping bombs. We want to live in peace so as the rest of the world...
The muslim extremists, so as the ones who has no heavy weapons to use, rely on self suicide to cause the most damage possible. For example, the Palestinians who were driven out of their houses (their houses were torned down and Israeli colonies were made instead), have no way to retaliate except by suicide bombing to cause the most damage possible.
I am not defending them, killing a human life is not Christian at all, I am just explaining to you why they are doing this... no more and no less...
SilverSpear
08-16-2006, 12:21 AM
Nicely said, DanSVX94. It is becoming obvious he may be one who has attacked innocent people.
Danny, everything you say leads to prejudice and dishonor. Can you not possibly see how dishonorable it is to put your very own children into harms way? Please try to understand. By your own post on the other thread there are 1.5 million Hezbollah. Why do you think Israel bombs your icecream parlour? Could it be because the owners are hiding Hezbollah?
Could it be because all of lebenon is hiding Hezbollah?
I am currently preparing a thread about Hizbullah and how he fought the Israelis, this will help you out a little bit understand things...
oab_au
08-16-2006, 06:31 PM
I am currently preparing a thread about Hizbullah and how he fought the Israelis, this will help you out a little bit understand things...
I'll look forward to it Danny, I'd like to find out as much as I can, about your view of the events, that have taken place in your country. I am glad you are a survivor mate.:cool: Be careful.
Harvey.;)
SilverSpear
08-17-2006, 12:30 AM
I'll look forward to it Danny, I'd like to find out as much as I can, about your view of the events, that have taken place in your country. I am glad you are a survivor mate.:cool: Be careful.
Harvey.;)
Thanks again Harv. The Lebanese War is very complicated, I read many books and got info from here and there in order to understand what is really going on. I am still learning till now.
You know what? All the Muslims/Druzes/Palestinians were never bloody in wars as we Christians were. We fought Sunnis, Druzes, PLO's, some Shiites and finally and mostly between each other. As we say we caused blood spill to reach the knees... :(
sorceror
08-17-2006, 12:29 PM
Danny, while I am glad you came out of it unscathed (the Lebanese war) I am saddened that people would label wars as religious.
The fact is war is generally based on stealing someone else's land. Some wars are based on people standing in to protect innocents from being cut down by tyrants.
Click on this link or copy and paste it. It is very enlightening and very accurate. please take note of those against modernization who call her a heretic. Please take note those opposed to her would surely assasinate her and her family if they could:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
SilverSpear
08-18-2006, 03:16 AM
Danny, while I am glad you came out of it unscathed (the Lebanese war) I am saddened that people would label wars as religious.
The fact is war is generally based on stealing someone else's land. Some wars are based on people standing in to protect innocents from being cut down by tyrants.
Click on this link or copy and paste it. It is very enlightening and very accurate. please take note of those against modernization who call her a heretic. Please take note those opposed to her would surely assasinate her and her family if they could:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
Oh yeah, that footage was posted before in this forum, she is right. I am not saying modernization is wrong, all Christians here live a modern life. You almost think that you are living in the US. This is also why all Arabs come to Lebanon in summertimes to enjoy a great time (In Christian places).
The Shiites and part of the Sunnites want to live that way without being bothered by anyone else... What they want is their business, why sticking our nose in that??? Let them be...
sorceror
08-20-2006, 11:29 AM
I am totally willing to let anyone alone who wishes to be left alone. I have trouble with people who make statements to the whole world that they are going to kill all non-believers of their religion. Then proceed to attempt to do just that. I don't think it to be wise to let such fanatics roam around the world.
If someone threatened you personally and then came to your door would you stand there or defend yourself?
Electrophil
08-20-2006, 12:04 PM
Stop twisting things as you wish, tell me what is the root cause then for terrorsit attacks???
Uhhhh... Terrorists?
SilverSpear
08-21-2006, 12:33 AM
I am totally willing to let anyone alone who wishes to be left alone. I have trouble with people who make statements to the whole world that they are going to kill all non-believers of their religion. Then proceed to attempt to do just that. I don't think it to be wise to let such fanatics roam around the world.
If someone threatened you personally and then came to your door would you stand there or defend yourself?
Sorceror (BTW what is your name?), why you think there are terrorist attacks all over the world? If you say it is because of Believer/Non-Believer, why I am then a Christian living near Muslims, still breathing as we speak and the Muslims are not making terrorist attacks in our part of Lebanon to wipe us off???
Believe me, if the US was even Buddhist and supporting Israel, Al Quaeda will be also making terrorist attacks against your country and all the others.
sorceror
08-21-2006, 11:38 AM
We have Buddhists here. We have about every man made religion you can think of here. Heck we even probably have terrorists here that came in through the open door policy of Mexico's border plotting against us right now. For that matter we even have people that don't even believe in religion at all. Our Army has just about every religion in it as well. Guess what they are all fighting on the same side too.
I am not saying muslims are incapable of being a peaceful people. I know many here in this country who I consider to be friends. I talk to many during meetings and we peacefully share ideas and theologies. I am saying until you guys quit backing and supporting fanaticism nothing is going to change any time soon.
sorceror
08-21-2006, 11:44 AM
By the way I like your new signature much more than your old one. I can understand the philosophy behind it and identify somewhat with it. When you take religion out of the mix you end up with people. Just simple human beings all brothers and sisters.
Your new signature makes me think there is hope for you Danny. It makes me think we can be friends.
SubaSteevo
08-21-2006, 11:53 AM
By the way I like your new signature much more than your old one. I can understand the philosophy behind it and identify somewhat with it. When you take religion out of the mix you end up with people. Just simple human beings all brothers and sisters.
Your new signature makes me think there is hope for you Danny. It makes me think we are friends.
But you don't know who the quote is from or in what context...
"I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other"
sorceror
08-21-2006, 12:53 PM
But you don't know who the quote is from or in what context...
"I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other"
That is not his signature Steevo. Your quote is from Hitler. I don't see that quote anywhere. And I didn't see his signature as any part of the quote you quoted.
sorceror
08-21-2006, 01:13 PM
Agreed, but a higher power? Yes sort of.:confused: "God" can only dwell in the minds of men. "God" should be upheld as simply the essence of goodness. Here endeth ---- :)
Nicely put, Trevor, I almost missed that.
SubaSteevo
08-21-2006, 01:39 PM
That is not his signature Steevo. Your quote is from Hitler. I don't see that quote anywhere. And I didn't see his signature as any part of the quote you quoted.
I didn't say it was from the same speaker. I just provided a topically relevant quote from an unnamed individual taken out of context.
The quote in Danny's signature could easily have been said by a member of Hezballah. I don't particularily have a problem with that, but you might. :)
sorceror
08-21-2006, 02:56 PM
I didn't say it was from the same speaker. I just provided a topically relevant quote from an unnamed individual taken out of context.
The quote in Danny's signature could easily have been said by a member of Hezballah. I don't particularily have a problem with that, but you might. :)
No I don't have a problem with his quote at all. If you think I do please read my post to him regarding it. It, regardless of who originally spewed it, could be construed as the writings of a patriot.
For you to go and post a quote from Hitler to try and cloud the issue ... Is well ... No ... Not even worth anymore of my time with you on the subject.
Simply stating what you say above was better than what you attempted.
SilverSpear
08-22-2006, 01:38 AM
I am not saying muslims are incapable of being a peaceful people. I know many here in this country who I consider to be friends. I talk to many during meetings and we peacefully share ideas and theologies. I am saying until you guys quit backing and supporting fanaticism nothing is going to change any time soon.
Sorceror this is why I suggested leaving the Muslims countries alone and stop interfiering in their business. Their doctrine is based on Death whereas ours is based on Life.
They are willing to kill themselves for a greater cause because their Qu'oran states so... so do not give them a reason to unleash the devil inside.
Our doctrine forbids self suicide or killing another human life. Our religion is based on love and respect.
What is fanatism in your point of view is normal in their point of view. Consider me as a Judge between the both of you... just leave them alone and do not give them a reason anymore to follow the dark side of their Qu'oran...
Is that hard to do???
Well I admit that the Jew/Muslims case will never end. The most important piece of land is Jerusalem where lies the former "Al Aqsa mosque" where their prophet flew on a horse and prayed (:confused: :confused: ) and in the same time "Solomans' temple"... They both have the right in that piece of land... and neither party will rest until he gets it...
So my suggestion to end the conflicst... NUKES :D :D
SilverSpear
08-22-2006, 01:44 AM
By the way I like your new signature much more than your old one. I can understand the philosophy behind it and identify somewhat with it. When you take religion out of the mix you end up with people. Just simple human beings all brothers and sisters.
Your new signature makes me think there is hope for you Danny. It makes me think we can be friends.
The only purpose from my former signature was to make you all feel why the Muslims are doing so... you must know why they are acting like that...
As for being friends, as much as I wish it... we still have differing view about Muslims...
No I don't have a problem with his quote at all. If you think I do please read my post to him regarding it. It, regardless of who originally spewed it, could be construed as the writings of a patriot.
For you to go and post a quote from Hitler to try and cloud the issue ... Is well ... No ... Not even worth anymore of my time with you on the subject.
Simply stating what you say above was better than what you attempted.
Well this new signature was written by a Hezballah militant, Subasteevo guessed it correctly...
Have you seen what is under my handle?
SubaSteevo
08-22-2006, 07:25 AM
Well this new signature was written by a Hezballah militant, Subasteevo guessed it correctly...
Have you seen what is under my handle?
SubaSteevo for teh win!
As I said, I have no problem with the quote, and I can understand its roots and how they tie in with Hezballah's goals :)
but since sorceror has said many times that they are terrorists, I just thought I'd point out that he liked the quote and thought they were patriots ;)
What is fanatism in your point of view is normal in their point of view. Consider me as a Judge between the both of you... just leave them alone and do not give them a reason anymore to follow the dark side of their Qu'oran...
Is that hard to do???
That wont work... If we sealed off all of our borders, pulled all of our troops back, and didnt do **** anywhere in the world.
Some terrorist organization, somewhere in the world, would still make us a target.
SilverSpear
08-22-2006, 08:28 AM
That wont work... If we sealed off all of our borders, pulled all of our troops back, and didnt do **** anywhere in the world.
Some terrorist organization, somewhere in the world, would still make us a target.
No logic in what you said, why would the Muslims then be attacking you for?
No logic in what you said, why would the Muslims then be attacking you for?
I never once mentioned Muslim in my post. Again, a little fanatical here?
sorceror
08-22-2006, 05:32 PM
Sorceror this is why I suggested leaving the Muslims countries alone and stop interfiering in their business. Their doctrine is based on Death whereas ours is based on Life.
They are willing to kill themselves for a greater cause because their Qu'oran states so... so do not give them a reason to unleash the devil inside.
Our doctrine forbids self suicide or killing another human life. Our religion is based on love and respect.
What is fanatism in your point of view is normal in their point of view. Consider me as a Judge between the both of you... just leave them alone and do not give them a reason anymore to follow the dark side of their Qu'oran...
Is that hard to do???
Well I admit that the Jew/Muslims case will never end. The most important piece of land is Jerusalem where lies the former "Al Aqsa mosque" where their prophet flew on a horse and prayed (:confused: :confused: ) and in the same time "Solomans' temple"... They both have the right in that piece of land... and neither party will rest until he gets it...
So my suggestion to end the conflicst... NUKES :D :D
Danny, by your own words you state their philosophy is that of death. Leaving them alone will serve no purpose. We left them alone and they bombed us and killed 3,400 innocent people. The day for leaving them alone for ever changed on Spetember 11, 2001.
Do you think leaving people alone who's only thought is that of death and killing anyone not believing as they do they will just stop? That may be one of the most idiotic statements I have ever heard.
They will continue to plot to destroy people no matter what. For that they need to be brought to task.
So now you are saying you want Iran to have nukes so they can destroy Israel ... Is that what you are implying?
sorceror
08-22-2006, 05:40 PM
The only purpose from my former signature was to make you all feel why the Muslims are doing so... you must know why they are acting like that...
As for being friends, as much as I wish it... we still have differing view about Muslims...
Well this new signature was written by a Hezballah militant, Subasteevo guessed it correctly...
Have you seen what is under my handle?
Danny I didn't say we were friends I implied we could be at some point. Not in any way shape or form was it meant as a "we are friends".
You see Danny, The statement in your signature could be conceived as one of a patriot from a democratic government. Just because some terrorist you idolize spoke it doesn't take away from the fact.
The more I talk with you and the more you speak ... It seems to me you are one of the hezbolla. It seems to me by your very own words all this time you are not a Christian at all. I think you are doing what any cowardly terrorist would do and hiding behind Christianity here in the forums but are a full fledged muslim terrorist.
Your words are not the words and thoughts of a Christian at all.
sorceror
08-22-2006, 05:49 PM
No logic in what you said, why would the Muslims then be attacking you for?
Do you deliberatley play stupid or did your father drop you on the floor at birth?
He did not mention muslims he said some terrorist organization somewhere would attack us.
You obviously equate all terror with Muslims by your reply to him.
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 01:23 AM
Danny, by your own words you state their philosophy is that of death. Leaving them alone will serve no purpose. We left them alone and they bombed us and killed 3,400 innocent people. The day for leaving them alone for ever changed on Spetember 11, 2001.
Do you think leaving people alone who's only thought is that of death and killing anyone not believing as they do they will just stop? That may be one of the most idiotic statements I have ever heard.
They will continue to plot to destroy people no matter what. For that they need to be brought to task.
So now you are saying you want Iran to have nukes so they can destroy Israel ... Is that what you are implying?
Do you deliberatley play stupid or did your father drop you on the floor at birth? (Kinda likey that phrasey :D )
Yes I did say this, but that doctrine of death should be related to a cause or else he will go to Hell. If you want to talk about religion, you should understand things. Dying with no cause = Hell, while Dying for a cause = Heaven/Women/Unlimited Money.... (I know it is stupid and unrealistic, but this is their religion.)
I say it again 9/11 attacks are condemned from everybody, especially Muslims. This has nothing to do with a religious sect defending his country against an invasion that it happened to be Muslim Shias in origin. Let's consider that Hezballah was Christians, would you say they are terrorists and equate them with Al Quaeda and 9/11???
I want Iran to have Nukes just to intimidate Israel from attacking and slaughtering Arabs either Muslims or Christians as it pleases with your government coverage.
But if any party whatsoever tends to use them, they are deemed terrorists in my book same as I deemed your government terrorists with the Heroshima and Nakazaki bombings during WW2. Your government could have intimidated Japan by bombing a certain inhabited Island somewhere nearby and threatened to use it both on Japan, Italy and Germany if it the war continues... NO?
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 01:41 AM
Danny I didn't say we were friends I implied we could be at some point. Not in any way shape or form was it meant as a "we are friends".
You see Danny, The statement in your signature could be conceived as one of a patriot from a democratic government. Just because some terrorist you idolize spoke it doesn't take away from the fact.
The more I talk with you and the more you speak ... It seems to me you are one of the hezbolla. It seems to me by your very own words all this time you are not a Christian at all. I think you are doing what any cowardly terrorist would do and hiding behind Christianity here in the forums but are a full fledged muslim terrorist.
Your words are not the words and thoughts of a Christian at all.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa, what you want me to say? I support Israel against my country? And I support killing of 1200 innocent civilians of my country? and Israel has the right to slaughter palestinians, prosecute them, kill them, invade neighbors many times, destroy their economy....
Get real man, and stop bullsh1ting people...
I am more Christian than you will ever be human...
sorceror
08-23-2006, 03:12 AM
Do you deliberatley play stupid or did your father drop you on the floor at birth? (Kinda likey that phrasey :D )
Yes I did say this, but that doctrine of death should be related to a cause or else he will go to Hell. If you want to talk about religion, you should understand things. Dying with no cause = Hell, while Dying for a cause = Heaven/Women/Unlimited Money.... (I know it is stupid and unrealistic, but this is their religion.)
I say it again 9/11 attacks are condemned from everybody, especially Muslims. This has nothing to do with a religious sect defending his country against an invasion that it happened to be Muslim Shias in origin. Let's consider that Hezballah was Christians, would you say they are terrorists and equate them with Al Quaeda and 9/11???
I want Iran to have Nukes just to intimidate Israel from attacking and slaughtering Arabs either Muslims or Christians as it pleases with your government coverage.
But if any party whatsoever tends to use them, they are deemed terrorists in my book same as I deemed your government terrorists with the Heroshima and Nakazaki bombings during WW2. Your government could have intimidated Japan by bombing a certain inhabited Island somewhere nearby and threatened to use it both on Japan, Italy and Germany if it the war continues... NO?
911 condemed by all and especially by Muslims? Did not Muslims from the Taliban allow the Muslims who perpetrated the slaughter do it? You are trult a sick man dude.
The World was a different place in the early forties. You know that yet you try to convolute the happenings in the world today once again. WE responded to terror with terror. We defended ourselves ... Once again ... WE WERE ATTACKED FIRST and viciously so. If you want to continue to live in a world equal to that of the forties and prior do so. ME and most of the rest of the world have moved on and is now trying to live in a place where tolerance and respect are dictated as the norm.
You see, Danny, hindsight is 20/20. Those who do not know history are condemed to repeat it.
The rest of the world is trying to come together so such attrocities as have been comitted for hundreds of years never happen again. You live in a place where you still embrace the atrocities and you yourself actually embrace them.
I am glad you like my statement, "Kinda likey that phrasey :D" ... I could say one of 2 things. Please get your own material - or - monkey see monkey do. Which one fits you best ... hmmmmm
Here's a banana ... ~ (throws him a banana)
sorceror
08-23-2006, 03:19 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa, what you want me to say? I support Israel against my country? And I support killing of 1200 innocent civilians of my country? and Israel has the right to slaughter palestinians, prosecute them, kill them, invade neighbors many times, destroy their economy....
Get real man, and stop bullsh1ting people...
I am more Christian than you will ever be human...
I love it when monkeys keep repeating the same lies over and over again - because it shows how limited their intelligence truly is.
Monkeys hate, monkeys steal, monkeys sneak around, monkeys do as they are told for a reward. Mokeys throw feces and rub it on themselves when angerred.
If you monkeyboy want to believe you are more human than me ... and want to believe you can still draw me into a religious argument ... Go ahead monkeyboy.
~~~~ throws him a banana
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 03:21 AM
911 condemed by all and especially by Muslims? Did not Muslims from the Taliban allow the Muslims who perpetrated the slaughter do it? You are trult a sick man dude.
Go ask any nearby Muslim Sheikh about it, Mr. Backward :D
The World was a different place in the early forties. You know that yet you try to convolute the happenings in the world today once again. WE responded to terror with terror. We defended ourselves ... Once again ... WE WERE ATTACKED FIRST and viciously so. If you want to continue to live in a world equal to that of the forties and prior do so. ME and most of the rest of the world have moved on and is now trying to live in a place where tolerance and respect are dictated as the norm.
They didn't attack your civilians, they attacked your marine core... and your gov. responded by wiping them out, both civilians and military???
You see, Danny, hindsight is 20/20. Those who do not know history are condemed to repeat it.
The rest of the world is trying to come together so such attrocities as have been comitted for hundreds of years never happen again. You live in a place where you still embrace the atrocities and you yourself actually embrace them.
Oh yeah, but no one condemned you for that back then, so they are just forgotten, right?
I am glad you like my statement, "Kinda likey that phrasey :D" ... I could say one of 2 things. Please get your own material - or - monkey see monkey do. Which one fits you best ... hmmmmm
Here's a banana ... ~ (throws him a banana)
I will also give you a banana, my banana I mean :D
123456789 RED ^
I never once mentioned Muslim in my post. Again, a little fanatical here?
bump, danny
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 07:49 AM
bump, danny
What is your interpretation then? Arab? Person? who?
My meaning was, that there would easily be some group of terrorists somewhere, regardless of race or religion, that would not leave us alone.
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 08:04 AM
My meaning was, that there would easily be some group of terrorists somewhere, regardless of race or religion, that would not leave us alone.
Who do you mean by YOU? Israel or the US?
SilverSpear
08-23-2006, 08:17 AM
Usa
123456789
Did Hezballah attacked you from 1983 up until now???
Did Hezballah attacked you from 1983 up until now???
Stop being so short sighted...
I am referring to Terrorism in GENERAL... not one specific event/group/etc...
lhopp77
08-23-2006, 08:28 AM
I say it again 9/11 attacks are condemned from everybody, especially Muslims. This has nothing to do with a religious sect defending his country against an invasion that it happened to be Muslim Shias in origin. Let's consider that Hezballah was Christians, would you say they are terrorists and equate them with Al Quaeda and 9/11???
I seem to recall pictures of people dancing in the streets and celebrating throughout the Muslim world immediately after 9/11. I don't think those were demonstrations AGAINST such terrorist attacks on the USA. It appeared to be that they were in support of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Very few Mullahs (damned few) have condemned the attack or other attacks on Americans.
Lee
DanSVX94
08-23-2006, 11:52 AM
Hey Lee, I bet Danny didn't know that the Grand Mufti was a Nazi officer in Hitler's SS. History channel :)
Electrophil
08-23-2006, 01:28 PM
Hey Lee, I bet Danny didn't know that the Grand Mufti was a Nazi officer in Hitler's SS. History channel :)
I heard he was a pilot with them also.
They called him the Grand Mufti diver.
sorceror
08-23-2006, 01:43 PM
I heard he was a pilot with them also.
They called him the Grand Mufti diver.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAH
Electrophil
08-23-2006, 01:49 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAH
Here's a man that appreciates humour. :D
Oh Yeah...
And this thread?
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Electrophil/37857.jpg
Well it sux most of all.
n00b on demand
08-23-2006, 01:52 PM
I seem to recall pictures of people dancing in the streets and celebrating throughout the Muslim world immediately after 9/11. I don't think those were demonstrations AGAINST such terrorist attacks on the USA. It appeared to be that they were in support of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Very few Mullahs (damned few) have condemned the attack or other attacks on Americans.
Lee
Pakistan condemned the attacks...and vowed to help the United States in any way possible...yet they are the ones that funded the taliban and supported them and took in many members of al qaeda....and they are also a strong ally of the United States....wait...huh..? :confused: :rolleyes:
DanSVX94
08-23-2006, 02:08 PM
I knew someone would go there, but I didn't realize how soon. He was also into scuba :)
SubaSteevo
08-23-2006, 03:54 PM
\yet they are the ones that funded the taliban and supported them and took in many members of al qaeda....and they are also a strong ally of the United States....wait...huh..? :confused: :rolleyes:
They are our friend cause they have teh nukes!!!111!!1
lhopp77
08-23-2006, 04:28 PM
Pakistan condemned the attacks...and vowed to help the United States in any way possible...yet they are the ones that funded the taliban and supported them and took in many members of al qaeda....and they are also a strong ally of the United States....wait...huh..? :confused: :rolleyes:
The Pakistani government IS helping in the war on terror. They have been intrumental in the capture of several key Al Qaeda leaders and other active terrorists. Besides they have provided intelligence that has resulted in capture of others throughout the world.
The reality is that the government is on very shakey ground in providing to much direct assistance. There is a very large populace of radical muslims that sympathize with Al Qaeda and help them in many ways. Yes, Al Qaeda members and probably even including OBL are hiding in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the government has at best only tenuous control of the area.
If you understand political realities---there is no confusion. Not an ideal situation, but still helpful to the US and other western nations.
Lee
SilverSpear
08-24-2006, 12:58 AM
I seem to recall pictures of people dancing in the streets and celebrating throughout the Muslim world immediately after 9/11. I don't think those were demonstrations AGAINST such terrorist attacks on the USA. It appeared to be that they were in support of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Very few Mullahs (damned few) have condemned the attack or other attacks on Americans.
Lee
Those are Al Quaeda supporters... of course they will celebrate, they are stupid. In their Qu'oran, such actions are forbidden... I say it again, ask any Muslims Sheikh about Jihad and he will tell you the same as I did.
The Pakistani government IS helping in the war on terror. They have been intrumental in the capture of several key Al Qaeda leaders and other active terrorists. Besides they have provided intelligence that has resulted in capture of others throughout the world.
The reality is that the government is on very shakey ground in providing to much direct assistance. There is a very large populace of radical muslims that sympathize with Al Qaeda and help them in many ways. Yes, Al Qaeda members and probably even including OBL are hiding in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the government has at best only tenuous control of the area.
If you understand political realities---there is no confusion. Not an ideal situation, but still helpful to the US and other western nations.
Lee
We also did capture few cells related to both Al Quaeda and the Israelis working here. The Al Quaeda members were preparing a major attack in Lebanon, our government managed to catch around 30-40 of them.
As for the Israelis, it was a druze traitor who was an informant for them and the Police captured explosives and high tech static instruments in his apartment...
sorceror
08-24-2006, 04:15 PM
Those are Al Quaeda supporters... of course they will celebrate, they are stupid. In their Qu'oran, such actions are forbidden... I say it again, ask any Muslims Sheikh about Jihad and he will tell you the same as I did.
We also did capture few cells related to both Al Quaeda and the Israelis working here. The Al Quaeda members were preparing a major attack in Lebanon, our government managed to catch around 30-40 of them.
As for the Israelis, it was a druze traitor who was an informant for them and the Police captured explosives and high tech static instruments in his apartment...
You still here?
sorceror
08-24-2006, 04:32 PM
Everyone should really get a laugh out of this one.
I shows the damage to beirut and lebanon as the lebenese are reporting it.
Don't worry, b3lla, it is only a couple of minutes long ...
http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp
"Get it straight"
Electrophil
08-24-2006, 06:58 PM
Everyone should really get a laugh out of this one.
I shows the damage to beirut and lebanon as the lebenese are reporting it.
Don't worry, b3lla, it is only a couple of minutes long ...
http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp
"Get it straight"
Excellent clip, and it's not the first I've seen of the staging. I saw one on the discovery channel, a 30 minute documentary of Palestine. They actually had ambulances standing by, and were caught on tape cueing the "victims", then cueing the Ambulances to drive up into camera view. :eek:
I seen one on... not making this up... I seen one on New Orleans after Katrina where they staged stuff.
Why stage stuff that isn't needed? Why ruin credibility? But they do it all the time. Personally I think it's all bad enough, that it isn't needed. Show the real, and that's bad enough in most cases.
I'm not a big literary type person, so I really enjoyed that Mark Twain quote for the first time in my life:
Quote:
"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed..........
If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed" ->Mark Twain
What a great quote!! :D
Everyone should really get a laugh out of this one.
I shows the damage to beirut and lebanon as the lebenese are reporting it.
Don't worry, b3lla, it is only a couple of minutes long ...
http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp
"Get it straight"
Just... WoW.
black beast
08-24-2006, 09:13 PM
I read through this entire thread and all I can say is let it be. The world is different, every culture has its own beliefs, and that is a wonderful thing. Trying to argue on beliefs is absurd, noone is going to give. Hitler thought he was the good guy remember that, noone every thinks of themselves as the bad guy, that is Hollywood, and damn them for pushing this "the bad guy knows he is bad" idea. No matter what anyone has done throughout history, it was done thinking they were doing good. So stop with the this terrorist that terrorist stuff, it is getting old. Danny, your country made a mistake, like everyone around the world. What noone seems to want to do is say, oops we botched it. I understand this is hard, for everyone. DanSVX94 you need to chill, the last four pages or so you have been better but God, you become very forceful, and that is not a good way to convey ideas, especially ones that are very tender to some.
Guys, this is a world network, and as that we have to act like adults, and place our issues at the door and come to problems in a manner that your children could look at and learn from.
It does not matter if this group was 99.99999% Americans, it is still called the World Network, that means any view from around the world is accepted. Please, please, do not act as only your view matters.
Chris
Trevor
08-24-2006, 11:26 PM
SiverSpear, ---- Danny,
Can you throw any more light on the following information appearing today in our local news.
---- New Zealand cameraman Olaf Wiig and American television reporter Steve Centanni are being held in a refugee camp near Gaza City by members of a Fatah militia, Palestinian Authority security sources and Hamas activists have told The Jerusalem Post. ----
Thanks, Trevor.
sorceror
08-25-2006, 10:04 PM
Excellent clip, and it's not the first I've seen of the staging. I saw one on the discovery channel, a 30 minute documentary of Palestine. They actually had ambulances standing by, and were caught on tape cueing the "victims", then cueing the Ambulances to drive up into camera view. :eek:
I seen one on... not making this up... I seen one on New Orleans after Katrina where they staged stuff.
Why stage stuff that isn't needed? Why ruin credibility? But they do it all the time. Personally I think it's all bad enough, that it isn't needed. Show the real, and that's bad enough in most cases.
I'm not a big literary type person, so I really enjoyed that Mark Twain quote for the first time in my life:
Quote:
"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed..........
If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed" ->Mark Twain
What a great quote!! :D
I concur once again! :)
Trevor
08-25-2006, 11:13 PM
I concur once again! :)
Then why are you are so upset with that which you should simply accept as being propaganda? :confused: :p
benebob
08-26-2006, 08:25 AM
I concur once again! :)
You still here?:confused:
lhopp77
08-26-2006, 08:27 AM
SiverSpear, ---- Danny,
Can you throw any more light on the following information appearing today in our local news.
---- New Zealand cameraman Olaf Wiig and American television reporter Steve Centanni are being held in a refugee camp near Gaza City by members of a Fatah militia, Palestinian Authority security sources and Hamas activists have told The Jerusalem Post. ----
Thanks, Trevor.
If you have read Danny's posts you will see that he knows little or nothing about Gaza and the Palestinians there. That is, of course, where the reporters were kidnapped.
If you read a little more you will see that Danny does not even like the Palestinians except as weak allies against Israel. Palestinian refugees have been a significant problem in his country both in terms of being economic drag as well as causing problems for Lebanon by launching attacks against Israel from Lebanon.
It is typical that even the Palestinian leadership has no control (or at least claims so) over the group that kidnapped the reporters. There are so many different radical Islamic factions that it is impossible to seriously negotiate with a central authority for a long term peaceful solution.
As pointed out in our press, the radicals are attacking the biggest ally in their cause. The worldwide press keeps their causes going. Without the publicity they receive from the press---their causes would die. I don't say this as an indictment against the press---just simply state a recognized reality.
Since this is true---I feel that the reporters will be returned unharmed.
Lee
immortal_suby
08-26-2006, 08:31 AM
Everyone should really get a laugh out of this one.
I shows the damage to beirut and lebanon as the lebenese are reporting it.
Don't worry, b3lla, it is only a couple of minutes long ...
http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp
"Get it straight"
That was pretty good.
ensteele
08-26-2006, 12:34 PM
I have seen some of this before, but this is good to show much of it together. Just who is the enemy anyway? Our Press? :rolleyes: :o
Trevor
08-26-2006, 09:22 PM
If you have read Danny's posts you will see that he knows little or nothing about Gaza and the Palestinians there. That is, of course, where the reporters were kidnapped.
If you read a little more you will see that Danny does not even like the Palestinians except as weak allies against Israel. Palestinian refugees have been a significant problem in his country both in terms of being economic drag as well as causing problems for Lebanon by launching attacks against Israel from Lebanon.
It is typical that even the Palestinian leadership has no control (or at least claims so) over the group that kidnapped the reporters. There are so many different radical Islamic factions that it is impossible to seriously negotiate with a central authority for a long term peaceful solution.
As pointed out in our press, the radicals are attacking the biggest ally in their cause. The worldwide press keeps their causes going. Without the publicity they receive from the press---their causes would die. I don't say this as an indictment against the press---just simply state a recognized reality.
Since this is true---I feel that the reporters will be returned unharmed.
Lee
Lee,
I will make up my own mind as to what I consider right/wrong or is the exact situation. Any information from Danny I will sift as I please. Get off your soap box. :mad:
benebob
08-26-2006, 11:01 PM
Lee,
I will make up my own mind as to what I consider right/wrong or is the exact situation. Any information from Danny I will sift as I please. Get off your s%$& box. :mad:
Fixed your post Trevor!
lhopp77
08-27-2006, 03:58 PM
As pointed out in our press, the radicals are attacking the biggest ally in their cause. The worldwide press keeps their causes going. Without the publicity they receive from the press---their causes would die. I don't say this as an indictment against the press---just simply state a recognized reality.
Since this is true---I feel that the reporters will be returned unharmed.
Lee
Released as predicted. Did you take note, Trevor?? ;) (Soap box put away for now)
Lee
SilverSpear
08-28-2006, 01:45 AM
Everyone should really get a laugh out of this one.
I shows the damage to beirut and lebanon as the lebenese are reporting it.
Don't worry, b3lla, it is only a couple of minutes long ...
http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp
"Get it straight"
Now this is a laugh!!! hahahahahaaaa, a Jewish website posting lies all over...
How could I have missed that??? Ok, let me analyse it:
- Concerning the smoke, I dunno what was that Reuters reporter thinking... he doesn't need to magnify it... Anyways I am just waiting for my company's IT dept to download me my phone software onto the PC. When they do I will show you real photos of bombing Beirut, smoke and stuff.
- As for the man holding a baby, well he is a member of the Lebanese Civil Defense (firefighter) who was extracting Qana's babies from under the rubble..
We all saw it in live video, what is unreal in that???
- As for the boy with the green hat, that was one of the first Israelis inhumane methods of treating the civilians. This scene happened in Nabatieh area (if I still remember) when the Israelis bombed that civilian street where there was NO Hezballah presence whatsoever there. A lot of civilians were either Killed/trapped under their demolished CONCRETE houses and all the surrounding civilians rushed to help them. But the F*cking Israelis turned around of another "Game" :mad: and bombed the same street another time killing and injuring the ones that were helping out. :mad:
There was a US reporter there (with somehow long blond hair???) he saw everything...
- Concerning the veiled woman, well most Lebanese have two houses, one in the Village and the other in Beirut or Beirut Suburbs. All the Southern Beirut residents have home villages in the south (the Shias), and as you all know that both places were heavily bombed, so it could be that this woman lost both houses and this Jew website posted that the place is in Beirut... It could also be that this woman lost her home in Beirut on the 22nd and then returned on the 5th to see that the whole Street was also destroyed beyond recognition... How can we tell that she was crying twice over her same house? It could be that in the second attack she lost loved ones, or saw her relatives houses destroyed and started swearing at the Israelis???
- As for the Hezballah militant near the "dump", That is no dump as the Israelis said, this is the southern part of the Lebanese Army Military training camp in "Kfarchima" city, we all saw the destroyed spying probe of the Israelis fall there, and it happened it fell on these tyres used for the training. Well the Israelis were spying on the Lebanese Army to see if they were hiding rockets for the Hezballah militants. If you don't believe what I said, you can do an internet search to see if there was something mentioned about it... I know I don't want to because I saw the whole scene live on TV and on all local TV stations and saw that "dumpster" the stupid Israelis mentioned... The Hezballah militant you saw was the one who fire the heat seeking missile that hit the Israeli probe and caused it to fell in that camp and on the tyres.
- As for the Manequin and the toys, the Israelis are real artists, I admit it. As you know, people lost their homes, many flew away before the attacks and they returned back and started digging for some lost things. There are wedding shops as you all know, it could be that the owner returned back and tried to salvage few things by removing the "repairable" pieces he can find and took them away from the rubble and to the location you all saw.
As for the toys, it could be that some of the toys were in a location which weren't affected by the dust of demolished houses. It could also come from returning families checking their houses again while their kids playing there. Do you know that some of the returning families whose houses are damaged have set a temporary tents in the same land and will live there until Hezballah builds their homes back??? :eek: :eek:
Pls stop listening to their crap, and I double dare that BIASED JEWISH guy who set that footage to face me either on this website or another. Also to make my statements credible, I ask any one of you to inquire a Lebanese guy you know (and has been following the events all the time) and post back his comments about what I said above.
Things are not always as it seem, cultural differences is key in our debate. For example, consider that you lost your home, you come over cry on it one time and think that the next step would be to build it back. As for the Shias, they are people who are very much attached to their land and property. They are poor people and they know that once they lost it, they will never get it back. But Hassan Nasrallah gave them home again, he is paying them between 10K-20K USD to rent a house and buy furniture for it. In the meantime he will be building back their original houses...
DanSVX94
08-28-2006, 07:12 AM
LEE, THANKS FOR KEEPING THIS ALIVE :mad: :mad: :mad:
What about Trevor, Earl, Bob... etc... hell include you and me in that list.
lhopp77
08-28-2006, 09:25 AM
Danny did provide me with new information that I did not know. I was not aware that all Lebanese were so wealthy that they owned 2 houses, that all of their teddy bears repelled dust and that the same place could be bombed a second time killing people but not doing additional damage. :)
Lee
SilverSpear
08-29-2006, 02:53 AM
Danny did provide me with new information that I did not know. I was not aware that all Lebanese were so wealthy that they owned 2 houses, that all of their teddy bears repelled dust and that the same place could be bombed a second time killing people but not doing additional damage. :)
Lee
Can someone copy those pictures from that footage for me to be able to explain to Lee where is the additional damage???
Lee all Lebanese have mostly two houses. For example my hometown is in Chouf district (eastern Saida on the map) but my family had to live in beirut suburb to be able to work at more decent salaries... I think the same is in the US, people come from mountain areas or remotely far areas to the cities to work there... correct??
Why don't you come over and teach me about our ways of life...
P.S: houses are not so expensive as in the states, 120 square meter house, tiled and finished without furniture (2 bedrooms, two toilets, one sitting room, one dining room, kitchen and a balcony) costs near 55K USD in Beirut suburb. it becomes more expensive in some parts of Beirut, while in other parts near the price of Beirut suburbs... Have you heard also about mortgage and installments?
Electrophil
08-29-2006, 08:18 PM
P.S: houses are not so expensive as in the states, 120 square meter house, tiled and finished without furniture (2 bedrooms, two toilets, one sitting room, one dining room, kitchen and a balcony) costs near 55K USD in Beirut suburb. it becomes more expensive in some parts of Beirut, while in other parts near the price of Beirut suburbs... Have you heard also about mortgage and installments?
55K wouldn't buy a small vacant lot in Las Vegas. I would tell you how much an acre of land costs here, but there isn't one available to put a price on. :eek: Nobody here would sell that much bulk land.
SilverSpear
08-29-2006, 11:17 PM
55K wouldn't buy a small vacant lot in Las Vegas. I would tell you how much an acre of land costs here, but there isn't one available to put a price on. :eek: Nobody here would sell that much bulk land.
Hmm, I forgot to mention that rarely are a one land/one house made in Beirut except for Villas of course. Over here you buy a piece of land and you set a building of say 6/8/10... whatever apartments you plan to do. So on that same piece of land you set many apartments... that way the cost of the apartment include the cost of land/6 or 8 or 10.... This is why they are cheap.
I also noticed that your houses are made of WOOD. There is no house all over Lebanon made of wood, they are all made of concrete here.
subi-crosser
08-30-2006, 12:56 AM
I have seen some of this before, but this is good to show much of it together. Just who is the enemy anyway? Our Press? :rolleyes: :o
If the initials are TT, yea
n00b on demand
08-30-2006, 08:31 AM
Hmm, I forgot to mention that rarely are a one land/one house made in Beirut except for Villas of course. Over here you buy a piece of land and you set a building of say 6/8/10... whatever apartments you plan to do. So on that same piece of land you set many apartments... that way the cost of the apartment include the cost of land/6 or 8 or 10.... This is why they are cheap.
I also noticed that your houses are made of WOOD. There is no house all over Lebanon made of wood, they are all made of concrete here.
In India we have a huge mansion built 3 years ago. 3 floors with a ramp so you can actually drive up to the second flood of the house. Marble floors with 7 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms and a small little pool on the back porch. The house cost us about $25,000 US dollars to build.....the front door alone cost $1,000. The front gate on the house cost another $1,500. When people in America go back to India to build a house they usually splurge just a tad :D
Electrophil
08-30-2006, 10:25 AM
In India we have a huge mansion built 3 years ago. 3 floors with a ramp so you can actually drive up to the second flood of the house. Marble floors with 7 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms and a small little pool on the back porch. The house cost us about $25,000 US dollars to build.....the front door alone cost $1,000. The front gate on the house cost another $1,500. When people in America go back to India to build a house they usually splurge just a tad :D
That would explain why 60% of every University's engineering depts are from India. They stay in India long enough to learn Calculus, which I think they teach in like 2nd grade over there. Then they come over here, go through college and get their PhD's in about 6 months with a GPA of 9 billion. Then they take a teaching position, and go build mansions in India.
Now I have it figured out! :D
That would be OK, if your countrymen knew how to F*&^en drive!! :mad:
n00b on demand
08-30-2006, 12:10 PM
That would explain why 60% of every University's engineering depts are from India. They stay in India long enough to learn Calculus, which I think they teach in like 2nd grade over there. Then they come over here, go through college and get their PhD's in about 6 months with a GPA of 9 billion. Then they take a teaching position, and go build mansions in India.
Now I have it figured out! :D
That would be OK, if your countrymen knew how to F*&^en drive!! :mad:
They do know how to drive. You try living in a country with one billion people and then tell me how it is to even walk through the streets. :) Driving in Manhattan is a piece of cake compared to over there.
Electrophil
08-30-2006, 08:04 PM
They do know how to drive. You try living in a country with one billion people and then tell me how it is to even walk through the streets. :) Driving in Manhattan is a piece of cake compared to over there.
But n00b! They bring that attitude over here. :eek:
Then they go to Las Vegas Casinos, open doors on cars, and then lie about it. ;)
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