Why not use water/alc/meth injection?

[svxsubaru1]

Since the SVX has a 10.1 to 1 comp ratio it seems like using some sort of injection system using water/alc/meth/propane would be greatly benifical in letting us run alot more boost while still using the stock internals. I know you still need to be able to mess with fuel supply and boost to aculy get any benifits, but it seems like emanage could let us adjust enough to get some pretty large benifits from it. Any opinons?

Here are some links on genral information on it, and evn DYI kit for under $200.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel.html

http://www.buickgn.com/alcoholinjectionsystem.htm

http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanecontent.html

[mbtoloczko]

I've been suggesting this for the last couple years, and back when I was planning to build a turbo EG33, I was planning on using water injection instead of an IC. For mild boost levels, it could easily work in place of an IC. Seems that the most common arguments against it are, "what if it breaks", or "what if I forget to put water in", or "its a hassle to always have to add water".

[svxsubaru1]

I think it could do more than that, theres STi putting out 500 WHP on pump 93 with meth injection. I bet we could get the eg33 to handle +10 PSI on pump if we could get the fuel (injectors/pump)for it with a safe tune with alc/water mix.

[LiquidForce]

I have been running the SMC kit on my WRX for almost year now. I picked up 40whp and 60tq from being able to push the boost up and pulling out some fuel. If your crazy like me you may even try adding Nitro to the mix.

If you are going to get one I would suggest getting one with a progressive MAP based controller.

[mbtoloczko]

I have been running the SMC kit on my WRX for almost year now. I picked up 40whp and 60tq from being able to push the boost up and pulling out some fuel....

Yep, that's exactly what I would expect... A little less fuel to get more to the optimum power afr and better detonation control. Makes me want to reconsider spending the money to turbo my EG33. :-)

[VTsuby]

I have a friend with a pickup thats about 10:1 with blower and water injection thing is a 2.25ton weapon. Don't forget the fuel economy benifits of injecting water

[sicksubie]

SO.... Go for it mbtoloczko, we have already had one success story this week. Start working on another one. :D

[svxsubaru1]

I have a friend with a pickup thats about 10:1 with blower and water injection thing is a 2.25ton weapon. Don't forget the fuel economy benifits of injecting water

How much of an improvment did your friend get for MPG?

Any one have experiance with this?
http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=120000037

[Pure_Insanity8]

SVXtasy used an AIC in his turbo setup... that part of his setup seemed to work pretty well.

[sicksubie]

What about just mixing in a pint of tuolene and a pint of xylene with a tank of gas? I got the idea from Gads he told me to go to a paint store and you can get a 10 gallon container of each. I don't remember what exact octane ended up being but I think that it was around 99. The only thing is that one of the chemicals is for cleaning your valves and the other is the actual octane booster. I gotta get a hold of him and find out which was which.

[Phast SVX]

SVXtasy used an AIC in his turbo setup... that part of his setup seemed to work pretty well.
he is no longer using the AIC,
phil

[mbtoloczko]

What about just mixing in a pint of tuolene and a pint of xylene with a tank of gas? I got the idea from Gads he told me to go to a paint store and you can get a 10 gallon container of each. I don't remember what exact octane ended up being but I think that it was around 99. The only thing is that one of the chemicals is for cleaning your valves and the other is the actual octane booster. I gotta get a hold of him and find out which was which.

Methanol/water injection work differently than toluene or xylene. Methanol/water are not actually octane boosters. Their purpose is to cool the combustion chamber and slow the burn of the fuel. An octane booster will slow the burn but will not cool the combustion chamber.

[drivemusicnow]

water/alcohol/meth injection is and always will be a good safety or power adder. I've been suggesting it to people as well.

I particularly like the cooling mist controller that is offered.

[sicksubie]

What is actually involved in adding a set-up like this?

[mbtoloczko]

Came across an interesting alcohol/water injection kit mentioned on EvoM:

http://www.devilsownonline.com/

For only $290, they have a kit that meters alcohol/water in proportion to the amount of boost. Pretty cool.

[drivemusicnow]

What is actually involved in adding a set-up like this?


There are a lot of varying degrees to which you can add a water/meth/alchy injection systems.

The easiest systems include a boost sensor that turns the systems on at a certain PSi. they include a vessel of some sort (some people use their windshield wiper resevoirs) a pump, a check valve, a nozzel sized for your application, and hosing qualified for the pressure you are running.

To upgrade on this system you can use controllers that take RPM, Throttle position, and boost to control the voltage going to the pump. Higher pressure pumps as well as pumps that can be used with methanol are upgrades. multiple nozzles may also be used, however you need to solve to see how much water/alch/meth you need.

You can also add two nozzles with two stages, and other such things. It can get extravagent once you start in with electronic controllers and multiple stages.

Like I stated before CoolingMist http://www.coolingmist.com/ is a good source of kits as well as information.

[svxsubaru1]

he is no longer using the AIC,
phil

Arent you using a aic? Or just a rrfpr?

[Phast SVX]

Arent you using a aic? Or just a rrfpr?
2v5 and vortech RRFPR and its running great
phil

[sicksubie]

again.. maybe a dumb question, but is this only applicable in F/I cars?

[mbtoloczko]

again.. maybe a dumb question, but is this only applicable in F/I cars?

If you mean forced induction (rather than fuel injected), the answer is that water/methanol injection is mainly used in forced induction. To control detonation, forced induction cars usually require retarding the ignition pretty far from the optimum ignition timing. Except for maybe very high compression ratio NA motors (or poorly designed motors), NA cars do not have to run that much ignition retard. Water/methanol injection is to control detonation so that more ignition advance can be run in forced induction cars.

[svxsubaru1]

2v5 and vortech RRFPR and its running great
phil

How high are your fuel presures gettting up to? And do you think there is head room for a couple more pounds of boost?

[solarsvx]

i had mine on boost load dependent, make sure to be carefull on where you locate the check valve, and best system is to get, are progressive rate units,


injection systems are only good for hi boost applications anything over 20 psi,

2 reason for it is to help with detonation and run higher boost levels off pump gas in performance gains there is a little to gain from it,

the best stuff to use is 99% methanol wich can be bought here in florida through titan motor sports for around 6.00 a gallon,


the wrx is runing 26 psi with meth kicking in off the UTEC system around 20 psi, there is a slight nudging between transistions and it wil back fire some what to purge the remaining methanol from the check valve to the intake manifold,

water works well and alchol work well also the pro's use methanol .

again any injestion system for a svx is usless

i have some video's in my locker if you want to see it in action on the dyno

[svxsubaru1]

I know many people that are using water/alc/meth injection systems that are running alot less than 20PSI and have had great results from it.

[Phast SVX]

How high are your fuel presures gettting up to? And do you think there is head room for a couple more pounds of boost?
im gonna wait till she is on a dyno, so i can take a nice long 4th gear pull and watch how the curve ends up before i make that call, i would say im near where i can go with this setup without running out of fuel
phil

[sicksubie]

If you start to lean out though you will be able to adjust it right? That way maybe you can allow yourself a couple of more lbs?

[Phast SVX]

If you start to lean out though you will be able to adjust it right? That way maybe you can allow yourself a couple of more lbs?
yes, i can increase the fuel pressure by changing the diaphram in the RRFPR

[sicksubie]

What do you foresee as the ceiling for boost with stock internals?

[Phast SVX]

thats a really hard question. Im not so sure i want to find out. I will just be runnign 3.5 lbs of boost around town, and six on race fuel at the track. I love the added power, and im going to drive it like it is. I dont forsee myself doing any more power adders to this car, just gonna love how she drives for now and enjoy it without blowing it up(hopefully)
phil

[sicksubie]

would you run into valve float like they are with s/c at higher boost?

[Drewbaru]

2v5 and vortech RRFPR and its running great
phil


I know what the rrfpr is but what is the 2v5?? I may know what it is but am not familiar with this abbreviation.
thanks.

[svxistentialist]

I know many people that are using water/alc/meth injection systems that are running alot less than 20PSI and have had great results from it.

If you boost the SVX on the stock internals and CR as Phil has done, the additional heat in the charge will tend to cause detonation. When the ECU gets the knock signals, it retards the ignition and adds more fuel to cool things down in the cylinders. As it is not burning the mixture at the best ratio in this mode, you do not get all the power the boost should be able to give.

Phil is probably getting good power because he is keeping the boost low. Using race fuel will also help, less tendency to detonate.

As Mychailo says, the fine water spray mist helps cool the charge, which in turn reduces detonation, and lets the ECU run things without retardation. This gives more power. Water is actually better than methanol, because it requires more energy to evapourate it than methanol does. Thus it absorbs more heat, cools the cylinders better. Methanol on the other hand will improve the Ron rating of the fuel mixture, so is a help to improve the burn rate of the mixture, as well as absorbing heat. For ordinary road use, a mix somewhere between 25% and 50% methanol would be a good compromise, but pure water would be 100% OK at lowish boost levels.

If you are going to very high boost levels, 10-15-20 lbs, the sheer amount of heat you are adding here [which is also a function of the efficiency of your blades, not just based on the pressure you are adding], this heat is not possible to remove by water injection alone, at least not without high pressure pumping of large volumes. This is just not practical.

The sensible route is probably to lower the CR for higher boost. In addition, water injection is probably easier to install on our SVXs for boosts in the 6-10 lbs region, and would not need a huge reservoir. You will probably need both injection and an IC if you go for higher boost levels.


Joe

[Phast SVX]

If you boost the SVX on the stock internals and CR as Phil has done, the additional heat in the charge will tend to cause detonation. When the ECU gets the knock signals, it retards the ignition and adds more fuel to cool things down in the cylinders. As it is not burning the mixture at the best ratio in this mode, you do not get all the power the boost should be able to give.

Phil is probably getting good power because he is keeping the boost low. Using race fuel will also help, less tendency to detonate.

As Mychailo says, the fine water spray mist helps cool the charge, which in turn reduces detonation, and lets the ECU run things without retardation. This gives more power. Water is actually better than methanol, because it requires more energy to evapourate it than methanol does. Thus it absorbs more heat, cools the cylinders better. Methanol on the other hand will improve the Ron rating of the fuel mixture, so is a help to improve the burn rate of the mixture, as well as absorbing heat. For ordinary road use, a mix somewhere between 25% and 50% methanol would be a good compromise, but pure water would be 100% OK at lowish boost levels.

If you are going to very high boost levels, 10-15-20 lbs, the sheer amount of heat you are adding here [which is also a function of the efficiency of your blades, not just based on the pressure you are adding], this heat is not possible to remove by water injection alone, at least not without high pressure pumping of large volumes. This is just not practical.

The sensible route is probably to lower the CR for higher boost. In addition, water injection is probably easier to install on our SVXs for boosts in the 6-10 lbs region, and would not need a huge reservoir. You will probably need both injection and an IC if you go for higher boost levels.


Joe

+1

I run 3.5-4lbs of boost on pump gas and 6psi on race fuel,just to make sure i am not pulling timing. I ran about 60 miles on 6psi without high octane fuel and experienced no timing retard, but im sure given another variable that would be detrimental such as a hot day, i would most likely make less power with more boost. But, given the way the car is setup now, i really do love taking your same tq curve and then just pulling it up even higher ;) If i do decided to lower the compression, ill be forced to go with a TEC-II or possibly program in an AEM, as the need for bigger injectors would be imperative. So for now, i cant say WI wouldnt hurt, but im enjoying endulging(and not over endulging) in boost, while keeping my car on the road ;)

phil

[Phast SVX]

I know what the rrfpr is but what is the 2v5?? I may know what it is but am not familiar with this abbreviation.
thanks.


Hey Drewbaru,

Im reffering to the ECUtune stage 2v5 engine management system. you can find info on it here:
http://ecutune.com/svx-stage2.htm

They are also desiging a blower kit, which you can see here:

http://ecutune.com/svx-stage3.htm

~phil

[Drewbaru]

thank you sir..

[sicksubie]

how does this sound? I have access to 94 octane at the pump and whenever I want to have fun I add 1-1 1/2 pints of toluene to a full tank of 93 or 94. The toluene is basically pure concentrated octane boost. Could I theoretically run 6-8 lbs of boost with: a fmic, the 93 or 94 in the tank and adding the toluene to every tank, and a MSD Stacker. The toluene would reduce detonation, but wouldit be enough to allow for the additional boost? I really want to get between 6-8lb without changing the internals.

[sicksubie]

Did you ever consider using the Deltacams with your turbo set-up?