Racing Alignment

[benebob]

Wanna see if anybody has some good ideas for a true race alignment.

I know we'll go with the most camber we can squeeze out of her up front but the rear and toes are what I'm looking for. Would like to get something down by the Subie challenge since we have new tires on and don't wanna kill them in 30miles.

[mbtoloczko]

I think that its going to depend on how the car handles now and what you want changed. Negative camber improves grip in corners but decreases braking traction. Toe-out at the front improves turn-in, but makes the car more twitchy at high speed. Rear toe-out promotes oversteer and makes the car more twitchy at high speed. You can also mess with the caster if you feel like slotting the strut mount holes in the front strut towers. Adding more caster will improve high speed stability and makes a more heavy steering feel at lower speeds.

[SVXRide]

Zero toe
2 degrees of negative camber front and back (I'm running 1.5 front and back this season and the car feels like it can handle more - i.e. I'm not noticing any problems with braking)
I like Mychailo's comment about slotting the mounting holes to give some caster adjustment - might just look into that for next season ;)
-Bill

[Subafreak]

Well I went with a little toe in in front, like .02" and 1.60 deg. of camber. In the rear I set the toe like .03" out and the camber is right about 1.30 deg. I'm very happy with the way it handled the track but I'm sure there is always room for improvment. ;)

[benebob]

I'm thinking a little toe out in the rear to help with the plowing and possible a little toe in up front. Why do you say 0 toe Bill experience? We're still plowing a bit and our rear doens't want to come around when I want it to in turns (even with new tread up front and dying out back). I think if we can get the rear to come around a little more it'll be much better for the car and for our times. Currently I like my cold pressures around 38-40 up front and 40-45 rear (the 45 would be a very tight course). I guess we really just need to get some numbers down first as currently I haven't a clue how badly I've butchered it with my $300 suspension modifications.

[thundering02]

I was just on the Solo performance website and They had some interesting bits....Namely a Magnetic camber also a bolt on looking one. and caster meter and toe measuring plates (couple peices of angle iron or so would work for those) Thoughts?

[SVXRide]

Ben,
Trust me, put a larger rear bar on that bad boy and the back will come around like a banshe (speaking from experience :eek: ). I've got zero toe on my car because I do drive it on the street and any noticeable toe will chew the tires up faster than anything else (and I've addressed things with the "optional" front and rear sway bars I have on my car :rolleyes: ).
You might want to switch the the pressures you're running - try running 5 psi higher in front than the back - higher front tire pressure is the general rule to try to reduce the amount of understeering.
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

Hey Bill, do you have any larger rear bars hanging around that I could pick up from ya? I don't want to go through the trouble of replacing bushings unless I have a bigger bar to put it. I also felt that on the course(stock alignment specs) that the rear just didn't want to come around... I have been looking for a rear bar but turned up nada. Mychailo was saying he is looking to build one but no word yet on the estimated date. Let me know where I could get one, or if you have one for a car setup like mine, would you sell it??

TOm

[benebob]

Ben,
Trust me, put a larger rear bar on that bad boy and the back will come around like a banshe (speaking from experience :eek: ). I've got zero toe on my car because I do drive it on the street and any noticeable toe will chew the tires up faster than anything else (and I've addressed things with the "optional" front and rear sway bars I have on my car :rolleyes: ).
You might want to switch the the pressures you're running - try running 5 psi higher in front than the back - higher front tire pressure is the general rule to try to reduce the amount of understeering.
-Bill

Higher pressure= higher times

[Subafreak]

Hey Bill, do you have any larger rear bars hanging around that I could pick up from ya? I don't want to go through the trouble of replacing bushings unless I have a bigger bar to put it. I also felt that on the course(stock alignment specs) that the rear just didn't want to come around... I have been looking for a rear bar but turned up nada. Mychailo was saying he is looking to build one but no word yet on the estimated date. Let me know where I could get one, or if you have one for a car setup like mine, would you sell it??

TOm


Yeah I think that was alot of your cars problem, I could get my car to kick around just just enough to make the corner transition pretty fast but your car just seemed to plow through all the corners. I know the Porter springs are harder than the regular G.C. springs and my car is a little lighter in places than yours, or it may just be my tires and alignment.

I would like to try a larger bar in the rear but I think it might end up being to much. But it would be fun to try. :D

[SVXRide]

Hey Bill, do you have any larger rear bars hanging around that I could pick up from ya? I don't want to go through the trouble of replacing bushings unless I have a bigger bar to put it. I also felt that on the course(stock alignment specs) that the rear just didn't want to come around... I have been looking for a rear bar but turned up nada. Mychailo was saying he is looking to build one but no word yet on the estimated date. Let me know where I could get one, or if you have one for a car setup like mine, would you sell it??

TOm

Tom,
I've got a stock rear bar that I replaced the stock end bushings with solid Al bushings that made it more effective, but still not enough for me. I could make a bar for you, but it would take around a month and run close to $300 (solid chrome moly bar stock + heat treating to bring it back to the right strength after bending + custom, heim-ended end links). A 3/4 inch bar (19mm) would probably be about right, given you're running the stock front bar. Try PM'ing Mychailo, as he might already have a 19mm rear bar available.
-Bill

[SVXRide]

Higher pressure= higher times

Ben,
Interesting....so running the front tires at a higher pressure than the back tires results in slower times for the racecar? :confused:
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

Since the front end of my car tended to plow, I would think the lower the pressure in the front and higher in the rear would be much more effective for my application. I would think lower pressure in the rear would work much better for the racer as it is much lighter than stock in the rear tending to let it free much easier. I doubt the front end has lost as much weight as the rear. For an SVX in street trim the lower pressure in the front and higher in the rear would be much more effective. Since the racer has lost so much weight it totally throws methods for anyone else out the window. I am not speaking out of experience but simple physics.

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Tom,
I've got a stock rear bar that I replaced the stock end bushings with solid Al bushings that made it more effective, but still not enough for me. I could make a bar for you, but it would take around a month and run close to $300 (solid chrome moly bar stock + heat treating to bring it back to the right strength after bending + custom, heim-ended end links). A 3/4 inch bar (19mm) would probably be about right, given you're running the stock front bar. Try PM'ing Mychailo, as he might already have a 19mm rear bar available.
-Bill

I am looking for a bar to mearly improve my times and help me handle the course much better than this past sunday. I don't want to make it a race car but still want it to perform like one... It is a double edged sword for me... Would that modified rear bar do what i want it to or will it not be enough for me either? Maybe bring it to the challenge and I could maybe borrow the trailer for the racer for a quick install of new bushings and a rear bar... Let me know what u think, I trust your opinion...

Tom

[SVXRide]

Tom,
Yeah, I'll bring it with me...just send me a PM when we get closer to the 17th so I remember to toss it in the car.
-Bill

[SVXRide]

some general guidelines...

Correct for understeer:
Raise front tire pressure
Stiffen rear shocks
Soften front shocks
Lower front end
Soften front sway bar
Stiffen rear sway bar
Increase front negative camber
Stiffen rear springs
Add weight to rear of vehicle

[benebob]

I am looking for a bar to mearly improve my times and help me handle the course much better than this past sunday. I don't want to make it a race car but still want it to perform like one... It is a double edged sword for me... Would that modified rear bar do what i want it to or will it not be enough for me either? Maybe bring it to the challenge and I could maybe borrow the trailer for the racer for a quick install of new bushings and a rear bar... Let me know what u think, I trust your opinion...

Tom

The best way to improve your times Tom as I'm sure you already know is seat time especially with an instructor. It is also far cheaper. The SVX overall isn't a very good autox car at all. Even when modified (as Bills is and he still lags 5 seconds behind the G stock Minis!) Ours definately is a limited shell but Dave and I really don't care as we can be somewhat competative locally, definately not nationally though as we don't have the money or aftermarket support. We sure do generate some interest though. As for the rear bar, you'll need to decide is it is worth the consequences as with any suspension change for every good there is an equal bad but really, I don't think you're quite qualified to make a judgement on that yet (don't get offended) but until you're running consistant times against consistant drivers any changes are really a shot in the dark as you're not able to tell if you're dropping times because of the change or if you're just learning the course. Just as Jesse said he was trying to take the slolom as straight as possible illustrates in many cases you'll be faster by not always taking the shortest line. Granted I didn't see the course but most slaloms unless they are at a start are about maintaining speed by using the cars motion as a pendulum so you do tend to go out a little futher. Each course is different as camber, road surface, decreasing radius turns and about 500 other variables come into play.

Personally, first thing I would do is pick up a rule book (you can download it from the scca) and after figuring out what class your in (I'd guess Street Mod) then start thinking of getting a set of used stickies and mounting them on those spare rims you have and also get a harness as you'll be amazed how much time you pick up from that (my guess is more than what you'd get from changing your bar). Then in 15 or so autoxs start looking at other stuff.

Like I said Tom don't get offended just giving suggestions by experience. I'll be the first to tell ya that our racer was probably 2 years ahead of both Dave and I as far as our abilities driving, just as your car right now is ahead of your abilities. This is why you see small light good handling low horsepower cars posting good times. It isn't that horsepower is bad, it is just a lot harder to handle most of the time on a course. One of our local SCCA board members (excellent driver) is looking for a car for the Subie challenge. He can't use ours as you're only allowed 2 drivers per car but if you want to let him drive yours I'll promise you that he will be 3 seconds fastert than you would on a 40 second course, in your car taking it easy so as not to break anything. This past Sunday was the first time I think I've acutally beaten his actual time in his 95hp Honda and I chalk that up to his 102 degree temperature and the dayquil.

[Earthworm]

I found this on our local Auto-x forum, does this help?

http://www.lumenique.com/images/mcoupe/UNDERSTE.GIF

[SVXRide]

The best way to improve your times Tom as I'm sure you already know is seat time especially with an instructor. It is also far cheaper. The SVX overall isn't a very good autox car at all. Even when modified (as Bills is and he still lags 5 seconds behind the G stock Minis!) Ours definately is a limited shell but Dave and I really don't care as we can be somewhat competative locally, definately not nationally though as we don't have the money or aftermarket support. We sure do generate some interest though. As for the rear bar, you'll need to decide is it is worth the consequences as with any suspension change for every good there is an equal bad but really, I don't think you're quite qualified to make a judgement on that yet (don't get offended) but until you're running consistant times against consistant drivers any changes are really a shot in the dark as you're not able to tell if you're dropping times because of the change or if you're just learning the course. Just as Jesse said he was trying to take the slolom as straight as possible illustrates in many cases you'll be faster by not always taking the shortest line. Granted I didn't see the course but most slaloms unless they are at a start are about maintaining speed by using the cars motion as a pendulum so you do tend to go out a little futher. Each course is different as camber, road surface, decreasing radius turns and about 500 other variables come into play.

Personally, first thing I would do is pick up a rule book (you can download it from the scca) and after figuring out what class your in (I'd guess Street Mod) then start thinking of getting a set of used stickies and mounting them on those spare rims you have and also get a harness as you'll be amazed how much time you pick up from that (my guess is more than what you'd get from changing your bar). Then in 15 or so autoxs start looking at other stuff.

Like I said Tom don't get offended just giving suggestions by experience. I'll be the first to tell ya that our racer was probably 2 years ahead of both Dave and I as far as our abilities driving, just as your car right now is ahead of your abilities. This is why you see small light good handling low horsepower cars posting good times. It isn't that horsepower is bad, it is just a lot harder to handle most of the time on a course. One of our local SCCA board members (excellent driver) is looking for a car for the Subie challenge. He can't use ours as you're only allowed 2 drivers per car but if you want to let him drive yours I'll promise you that he will be 3 seconds fastert than you would on a 40 second course, in your car taking it easy so as not to break anything. This past Sunday was the first time I think I've acutally beaten his actual time in his 95hp Honda and I chalk that up to his 102 degree temperature and the dayquil.

Tom,
I'll just add to Ben's well thought out comments...
The SVX basically has too much going against it to be really competitive at a National level, yet it can be competitive on a Regional level. As Ben noted, I've done just about everything you can do to the SVX, handling wise, only to find myself 4-5 seconds (a lifetime in autoX) behind '05 Mini Ss. While a certain amount of this is due to driver skill (or lack thereof :rolleyes: ), the bottom line is that the SVX is a big car for autoX'ing. This doesn't mean that you can't have a ton of fun driving it (which is why I keep doing it! :D )
I'm just about at the point where there is nothing left to do to the car (at least from an autoX standpoint ;) )and my focus will be entirely on getting more driving time. Having watched the National-level drivers at FedEx long enough now, there are seconds to be found by driving the right line!
-Bill

[SVXRide]

I found this on our local Auto-x forum, does this help?

http://www.lumenique.com/images/mcoupe/UNDERSTE.GIF


David,
Neat figure! It's really more applicable to road courses.
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

I really appreciate the feedback guys.. I am not insulted in any way, I am a novice and I know it. I will be taking notes from you guys as long as you are willing to preach. I am no pro-driver but I am merely trying to learn the limits of the car as to suit me better in daily driving. I would not call myself a slouch either. With my SVX cranked konis on a 4 corners I was able to shoot down some modded porsches and even a stock wrx. It was a ton of fun and I will be doing it more often, I am not sure if I want to compete though... Like I said, I want the car to perform like a race car but still be able to go get groceries and take corners hard enough to throw the groceries all over the trunk :D . Anyway... I am probobly not going to get sticky tires this season and may be able to get them next season. Either way, don't think I will be quiting drag racing either as this is still my true passion..

Tom

[benebob]

With my SVX cranked konis on a 4 corners I was able to shoot down some modded porsches and even a stock wrx. It was a ton of fun and I will be doing it more often, I am not sure if I want to compete though... Like I said, I want the car to perform like a race car but still be able to go get groceries and take corners hard enough to throw the groceries all over the trunk :D .

Tom

We typically run a couple seconds better than comparable WRX drivers and about even with the best of 'em in our regional area. It really isn't a good autox car unless it is raining or it isn't a tight course plus its a daddy bought car for most of the kids driving them and they don't have a clue how to keep it in the power band. Most original RS Imprezas are better suited as they are classed a little better (GS against minis though). I'd hold onto those rims and keep your eye out for some used Kuhmos on ebay (that Bill isn't already bidding on). For 200 or so you should have a good year of sticky left provided you don't drive 'em to the track. As for groceries are you serious? We can fit a ton of groceries and then 3 kegs into the race car!!! :D

[benebob]

I found this on our local Auto-x forum, does this help?




Great David! Its telling us to lower our front suspension more! Where the heck do they want us to put the tire at? Grind out the top of the wheel well? :D

[SVXRide]

Great David! Its telling us to lower our front suspension more! Where the heck do they want us to put the tire at? Grind out the top of the wheel well? :D

and there's a problem here? :p
-Bill

[benebob]

and there's a problem here? :p
-Bill


They just posted the results from Sunday Bill. Take a looksee. Its getting there! Just need to go lower up front and hope they sweep the pebbles from the course!

http://www.scca-susq.com/results/2005/05-08-21-axresults.htm

[TomsSVX]

Looks like Dave had a little trouble not hugging the cones.... :D

Tom

[benebob]

Looks like Dave had a little trouble not hugging the cones.... :D

Tom

He was complaining about the new tires and the nice flat spot I left in 'em.

[SVXRide]

I think the correct phrase is "Dave coned away his run" :eek:
-Bill
p.s. congrats Ben!!

[newsvx]

They just posted the results from Sunday Bill. Take a looksee. Its getting there! Just need to go lower up front and hope they sweep the pebbles from the course!

http://www.scca-susq.com/results/2005/05-08-21-axresults.htm
Great times, Ben. The "RAW" times tell the tale......

Harry

[Hocrest]

Looks like Dave had a little trouble not hugging the cones.... :D

Tom


No trouble whatsoever....

I didn't hug them... I slammed 'em :D

[TomsSVX]

don't feel bad, I mowed right over a come this past sunday. It went straight under the front of the car..... :( :(

Tom

[SVXRide]

don't feel bad, I mowed right over a come this past sunday. It went straight under the front of the car..... :( :(

Tom


Murderer!! :eek: :eek: :D
-Bill

[Subafreak]

Ddi you get to watch your tape yet Tom. :D

[TomsSVX]

yeah I just watched it this morning. It was pretty funny to watch myself decimate that cone :D Anyway I had a great time and I just got to look at the X-member, it looks great!! I also appreciate the new hangers for the exhaust and whatnot everything looks excellent!! Thanks again!!!

Tom