Turbo project

[Spindoctor]

I am currently building a turbo 3.3 out of my old 91 SVX. It now resides in a 98 impreza, with an early WRX 5spd. Thats 2810 lbs with the driver.
It will have either a GT35R or T04S60-1.
On paper it will run between 16-18 psi. Final boost will be determined by its behavior on my dyno at settings (maps) for both pump 92 and race 101.
The pistons will be custom forged and probably around 8.8 to 1.
A stand alone will run the system. Looking at Autronic, Motec or even
perfect power. I have tuned dozens of different systems & most of the full stand alones will do a decent job.
My questions for those of you more familiar these motors than I ( this is my first 3.3) are: :confused:
Does anyone build a fuel rail to convert to the more common PNH injectors?
Are there rod and piston sets already available? or Who is your favorite manufacturer.
What kind of block mods should I consider when I do the tear down?
And is there anything, besides the inevitable broken drive train parts :mad: , that would put the brakes on this build before I continue?
Calculators put the crank h\p over 475 on 92 and near 600 on 101. :eek:
I know how a real world build usualy turns out though and I am shooting for a realistic 400. Any more will be a bonus. :)
Any and all coments are apreciated!
Thanks in advance- Tim H (aka The Spindoctor) Dynoauthority

[lhopp77]

Will really be interesting to see a turbo'd 91 since there were no 91s. Maybe you actually mean a 92 that was manufactured sometime in 91.

Lee

[drivemusicnow]

Well, the first thing you REALLY need to understand about the EG33 is that the aftermarket is non-existant. If you understand this, then that answers half of your questions right there.
No custom fuel rails, no specific pistons or rods, (the legacy 2.2 turbo pistons will supposedly work, however i don't know of anyone actually running them),
I'd suggest looking into closing the deck, however for 400 i'm not sure if this is neccesary. you may want to look into a custom headgasket... I'm not sure the stock will hold that much boost.


I think that you'd be much better off with the full standalone. however, you need to make sure that it will work with the type of ignition system we have. The coilpacks are actually "attached" to the individual spark plugs.

getting custom pistons and rods made shouldn't be all THAT expensive, but you're still looking at about 1000$

Good Luck!, have you seen the other impreza swap thats going on right now? its posted on nasioc

[TomsSVX]

If you search Crower, there was a member who was in contact with Crower for custom internals and they gave them a quote....can't remember how much at this very time. If you mus turbo the car your plan sounds pretty good but if you are looking for more power please check the ECUtune Stage II or Stage III. These kits are amazing and are producing monster power. With a built motor with the stage III supercharger, that engine can make amazing amounts of power without dealing with the standalone tuning at probobly a much lesser cost.(mike is not paying me to advertise) it is just a suggestion for ya.

With that much power, You might want to think about upgrading to the STi gearset or the 6mt in the future as you will definately blow out your box in a short amount of time.

Tom

[THAWA]

How much power does the stage 3 make? I haven't seen any numbers yet.

[Chiketkd]

How much power does the stage 3 make? I haven't seen any numbers yet.
At 7 psi of boost, assuming there's no boost leaks etc., there should be ~340hp at the crank.

-Chike

[THAWA]

what dyno was it tested on?

[Chiketkd]

what dyno was it tested on?
That's not a dyno result, just a mathematical calculation of crank hp based on the boost numbers LAN is running... :)

-Chike

[Spindoctor]

Thanks for the info so far- Please keep it coming.
As for the year of the car I looked at the pillar plate when I first posted and
its birthday is 7/91 so that is where that came from.
As far as the blower mod idea- I had first looked into building my own using an Eaton M-112 blowing up through an air to water intercooler.
However my main reason for going with the turbo is control. Since I have been unable to find anyone who can tell me where the limits of this engine are
a turbo with intercooler and water injection, stand alone control etc. means I have the ability to sneak up the boost while watching for the signs of failure.
I can spool up soft at first and if things look good I can work up to a full anti-lag launch with up to 21 psi at 2500 rpm.
Obviously, with a blower, you lose out on some of that control.
Once a limit has been established by means of the old "grow-it till you blow it" method, I can fix the weak spots and go from there.
Which brings me to the trany. Par & Pfitzner make some nice stuff and when the poor thing finally gernades thats probably direction I will go. All the rally guys who come to the dyno say thats the HD stuff.
As far a closing the deck and making custom rails I have no problems doing that for this project. What I was looking for was a short cut if someone out there has already done this. If not, then it looks like a trip to the old water-jet guys.
If you want to see my shop you can go to Dynoauthority.com (should be up by June with lots of cool pictures info and links) or Dynoauthority.net this is the old site with some stuff still there.
Or you can pick up the latest issue of Subiesport and look at the article done at our facility.
I started this project do to a put-up or shut-up discussion after a day of tuning Porsches when I made the comment that if they where water cooled we would be able to get more out of them.(the Porsche guys didn't like that) I mentioned the EG33 as a perfect rival and was told that if it was do'able someone would have done it by now.
So here I am setting out to beat up on Porches.
Thanks again for all your input - I hope to have the build done in time to get to the track before this season is over.
Tim H - The Spindoctor

[jsvxstyle]

i got those just for eg33 if you need them. $100.00 for fuel rail pair. injecter set up with inner sleevs the weld on fuel rail. $600.00. you weld yourself.

[SVXtasy]

Hi
You should check out my site www.svxtasy.com and email me with any questions. I believe I am the only one who has successfully turboed an SVX on the forum. Your project sounds excellent! I have looked in to an auotronic standalone god I would love to do that! I have done extensive research on all things to deal with turboing the SVX and have a huge amount of info.

[TomsSVX]

There are a ton of guys who build airplane motors out of the eg33 runnign twin turbos to superchargers, I even remember seeing a pick with the tt motor with a custom intake manifold that acted as the intercoolers also. pretty neat. Might want to search for those posts too

Tom

[Gravija]

Hi
You should check out my site www.svxtasy.com and email me with any questions. I believe I am the only one who has successfully turboed an SVX on the forum. Your project sounds excellent! I have looked in to an auotronic standalone god I would love to do that! I have done extensive research on all things to deal with turboing the SVX and have a huge amount of info.

how much power are you putting to the wheels?

think its more than a stage 3?

[Wreckless]

Gravija, with SVXtasy's MAF overrun issues at 5-6 psi and the fact that the nearest AWD dyno is in Denver, he never dynoed the car. Once his fuel system and management is finished and he solves the MAF overrun issues, who knows. I keep harassing him to get a 'real' turbo :)

[SEA Sleeper]

....So here I am setting out to beat up on Porches....

I love where you’re going w/ this project. Ironically, I heard that Subaru used licensed Porsche parts in our cylinder heads. Heard that from a guy who does R & D for rebuilding engines.

Best wishes in you endeavor. I'm a Porsche enthusiast as well but I love the EG33, it's a marvelous engine.

[Earthworm]

I don't think the EG33 has any Porsche parts inside but I thought it was the variable valve timing they licensed from Porsche?

[THAWA]

Duh the whole engine is made by porsche. There's also twin turbo manual versions in japan.

No there's no vvt and there's no porsche parts on this suby.

[TomsSVX]

thats a little harsh... seems like you take the crude aproach to dropping knowledge not always recomended as it was not a shot at you to begin with.

Tom

[Spindoctor]

What is most interesting to me about the EG33 motor is how under utilized it seems to be.
I realize the day of the SVX came and went just before the big explosion in import tuning really hit but, for about two thirds the price of a new STI I could aquire a nice SVX mod the hell out of it,custom as it may be, pocket the extra 10k and blow most of the locals off the street.
Lets face it mod for mod at the end of the day there is no replacement for displacement.
I see guys on my dyno trying to build thier BMW mini's. They will throw thousands of dollars at these money holes and if thier lucky they might get up to 250 hp. :confused:
I also have loads of EVOs, WRXs & STIs all very impressive when modified.
Again- this is my first foray into an EG33 project. On paper it should play with the best of the entry level super cars. And so far I have found no one that is willing to tell me different.
I slipped mine into a 98 Impreza because Iam into stealth cars. This car will remain as unaltered in appearance as I can get away with. That includes leaving a dummy stock muffler in its factory location and no visible guages in the dash. Add a Tein suspension,Par built trans with ACT clutch and some Friday night Cobra is going to have to try explain to his buddies what just happend. :D
I am still interested in any parts ideas (especially axle mods\up-grades).
Horror stories on what not to do are sometimes more important than you might think - I'll take those to.Again - Thanks in advance for your input.
Tim H - The Spindoctor

[deruvian]

Horror stories on what not to do are sometimes more important than you might think - I'll take those to.Again - Thanks in advance for your input.
Tim H - The Spindoctor

I have only heard two horror stories related to the engine, and both were NOS-related. Both simply ran too much. One was likely because of the ultra-low gearing of 1st gear in the STi 6MT, mixed with a NOS hit at near-idle RPM speed. His story is being told as we speak, and he blew the #4 piston to little pieces. Also did some valve damage IIRC. The other guy ran too much too often, and blew a piston rod.

Correct me if my stories are wrong, but I believe those are adequate.

There is one EG33-t on this forum, running safely on what... 8 psi? The other is the ECUtune stage 3, so far running safely on 6 - 7 psi. I have heard stories of two other EG33-t motors, one of which I have seen pictures of. Never heard any horror stories about that one. The other, you will have to ask SVXtasy about. It is the guy who wrote the infamous "SVX FAQ" and he has gotten a lot of info from that guy.

The general consensus thus far is that a 100 shot of NOS, without tuning, is at the limit. Anywhere above, and tuning is necessary. 6 - 8 psi of boost has been safe thus far, obviously with some moderate tuning. Start there, and ramp up a little now and again. You will likely take the engine to breaking point one day - under heavy load of course. I have never ever heard of EG33 internals being damaged in a stock vehicle. I have also never heard of one "simply breaking," even in a modified SVX. All of them that broke had been under load.

Does that help at all? While I don't say much on this board, you could pick my brain for hours.

[mbtoloczko]

....Again - Thanks in advance for your input.
Tim H - The Spindoctor

I'm very much looking forward to your work. My concern is that the EG33 motor may not be tough enough for the job. I think you'll be one of the people who helps define the limits of the motor. :-)

[Spindoctor]

With as much time and money that I expect to put into this project, it is still
what I call a POC -proof of concept. So some of the little extras like cryo treating the crank and rods, thermal coating the piston tops, valves and exhaust runners just won't happen this time. I doubt that I would spend the money on cams if I found a set.
So for now I will make the most with 8.5:1 pistons, as far as engine mods go, and spend the extra on proper fuel\boost control. Port and polish I can do for the cost of the cutting heads so I will do that.
I dodn't intend to break this engine in the name of research but, sometimes thats just the way the pistons crumble.
It certainly would not be the first engine to relocate it internals while on my dyno.
-The Spindoctor

[TomsSVX]

do you plan on closing the deck?? i mean if you are planning on running 14-16lbs of boost, it would be suggested. What are your plans for the headgasket? The stock gasket will pop under that pressure. The cams cannot be ground that much to make a significant gain it would not be worth the money to have them done. There was a deep discrussion about valve spring tension and what it's reactions would be under boost. Check the Stage III development thread twards the end. Subafreak was the one who recently blew the motor due to a low launch and early activation of the Nitrous. Poweredx2 was the other person to break a rod from running a little too lean on a 150 shot dry. Well I hope this helps....you may be able to buy custom pistons fitted for the ej22t and utilize them in the eg33 just for money sake but that is still up in the air also. Good luck with your project, we all wanna see what this eg33 can do.

Tom

[Spindoctor]

If I do go so far as to make any bottom end mods on this build it would be to close the deck.
This would go along way towards strengthening the assembly, particularly in the area of the headgasket.
My machinest has told me that many head gasket failures will start with poor headbolt performance, stretching under boost and allowing the hot gasses to burn the gasket. This is why an ARP stud kit will be used.
And as far as Nitrous goes, anything over a 100hp shot and I would be looking at a full wet shot system on this build.
Compared to a rebuild its not that much more and if you run a seperate
fuel system you can hit it with 104 to help prevent det.
-The Spindoctor

[oab_au]

What is most interesting to me about the EG33 motor is how under utilized it seems to be.
I realize the day of the SVX came and went just before the big explosion in import tuning really hit but, for about two thirds the price of a new STI I could aquire a nice SVX mod the hell out of it,custom as it may be, pocket the extra 10k and blow most of the locals off the street.
Lets face it mod for mod at the end of the day there is no replacement for displacement.
I see guys on my dyno trying to build thier BMW mini's. They will throw thousands of dollars at these money holes and if thier lucky they might get up to 250 hp. :confused:
Tim H - The Spindoctor

Gid'ay Tim, your project looks good, and I see no reasion that it won't work. As you say, the engine is not stressed in standard form. It was not designed to give maximum hoursepower, rather it was a broard solid torque output that was needed to allow it to cruise at a high speed, all day.

The work that is needed, depends on the application. If it is to be a road car, with the odd hard blast, the engine is fine to say, 7psi. over that, the 2.2Turbo pistons are needed to drop the compression. 14 psi would be ok as long as it was not applied at too low a rpm.

If the engine is to be used for continious boost conditions, rally, circuit racing, full on drag racing, it would need more work done to the internals. Containing the cylinder pressure, gaskets ect, and cooling, exhaust valves, cylinder head, ect. While the engine speed is not taken too high <7k nothing else should give any trouble. Higher rpm would need better rods, valve springs, longer duration cams.

I myself prefer a Positive displacement blower, for the better spread of torque, and the cooler charge. I see you say the Turbo is more controlable. It is very easy to control the boost from a blower, as it is linked to the right foot, :) If you can't trust the foot, the bypass valve can be arranged to open to limit it. The Turbo is linked to the exhaust energy, that is not as positivly linked to the foot, and can run its own race. :eek:

All the best with it, we'll watch with interest.
Harvey, ;)

[TomsSVX]

All the best with it, we'll watch with interest.
Harvey, ;)

lots of interest... :D

Tom

[Spindoctor]

Harvey,

What I meant about control in respects to boost was in reference to tuning while on my dyno.

I have a twin eddy current AWD Mustang dyno and while tuning, particularly with live tune systems such as the Autronic, the dyno alows me to hold any load and rpm I choose at a steady state. With my laptop, from the drivers seat, I can adjust air\fuel, timing & boost while watchig EGTs , Knock signals and torque loads.
All done live action with instant feed back.
This how I can 'sneak up' the boost particularly in the low rpm knock prone areas, with a turbo.
To do this with a blower I would have to set best settings for a given pulley size, graph it, change pulley size, set best, graph again, compare graphs, possibly change pulleys again etc.- Its a little more tedious but thats how its done if you are searching for the best boost curve an engine can take.
Which ever system you choose to run is up to your personal need or skill.
They all have their strengths and weaknesses.
As long as you end up with what you where looking for its all good.
Getting an engine to tell me what it wants is the easy part.
Getting the customer to make up their minds and tell me what they want is the hard part.

By the way Harvey- are you anywhere near Melborn?
I could use a good deal on the new Autronic SM4 with the add on knock control board. :)
The Spindoctor

[THAWA]

thats a little harsh... seems like you take the crude aproach to dropping knowledge not always recomended as it was not a shot at you to begin with.

Tom

Maybe I should've taken the duh out.

[THAWA]

To add something slightly constructive :), I think if you take a look at the other open deck subaru engines and compare them to this you will see a reliable limit you can reach. I'd say base most of your expectations on how far EJ20K's, EJ20H's, and EJ20R's can go before breaking. Increase this number 50% and that should give you an average of the amount of power you "should" be able to reliably make. Of course there's going to be differences since they're entirely different engines, but it should still give you round about numbers. I say if you've got tons of money to spend, test the limits of a few stock blocks first. See what breaks and when. Then concentrate time and money on those areas, that way you dont waste money on something you don't need to. Who's to say the stock block wont stand up to 500-600 hp. Course if you're not willing to sacrifice a few blocks then yeah, go all out.

[Spindoctor]

I read an article about an engine developement team for GM.
Their big secret for testing a new engine design for durability was:
Step 1) Hang it on the engine dyno
Step 2) Load it up and start flowing the nitrous until some thing breaks!
Step 3) Strengthen that component and go to step 2
I WISH I had that kind of job.
Usually when I do a Test to Failure Analysis (TFA) its because (as a visiting Gemballa tuner once told me) 'The car wasn't ready for the dyno'.
Spindoctor

[SVXRide]

*snip*
Usually when I do a Test to Failure Analysis (TFA) its because (as a visiting Gemballa tuner once told me) 'The car wasn't ready for the dyno'.
Spindoctor

:D :D :D
-Bill