Experiences with Level 10 Hydrosystem recalibration

[tmaslar]

Does anybody have any experience or opinions about the Hydrosystem valve recalibration that Level 10 (levelten.com)offers? They claim it lowers the operating temperature of the tranny fluid enough to make external coolers,filters and such unnecessary. All while improving shift performance and increasing transmission life. This costs $700 if you pull and replace it yourself. They want another $300-$400 if they R/R the unit for you. Is this for real and can it actually make up for design shortcomings in early 92' transmissions such as mine. $700-$1100 seems like alot of $$$ especially considering the fact that the tranny in my car is currently working fine. I am interested in keeping it that way as long as possible considering the well known problems with this transmission. I have already purchased an external cooler, filter and temperature gauge for the transmission. By the way the car is a newly purchased 92' with 44,000 miles on it.

Tom

[Green1995SVX]

Welcome to the network. Where in PA are you located? It's a big state.

Mike

[tmaslar]

Hello,

I am in Allentown area in south eastern PA about 50 miles from Philadelphia and 75 miles from New York City.

Tom

[LarryIII]

Tom,

Welcome to the SVX family. May your SVX give you as much pure joy as mine gives me.

It is my understanding that the Level 10 "hydro-valve has a 1/16" larger dia. for the valve orifice than the stock '92-'95 valve. This is the same thing Subaru did with the '96-'97 tranny. This increases ATF flow thereby lowering the temperature.

[svxcess]

Originally posted by LarryIII
It is my understanding that the Level 10 "hydro-valve has a 1/16" larger dia. for the valve orifice than the stock '92-'95 valve. This is the same thing Subaru did with the '96-'97 tranny. This increases ATF flow thereby lowering the temperature.

Larry,

Is there a place in your vast SVX technical library where this is documented? I thought all valve bodies were the same throughout the years. I did not know that the 96/97s had that modification. Does that mean that all factory remanufactured trannies have the benefit of this update?

(I remember talking to Pat at Level Ten about the hydrostatic valve mod when I had the 92 pearlie. He said all the aftermarket cooling in the world would not make as much difference in keeping tranny fluid temps low and protecting the internals as the valve body recalibration.

He said its all about increasing the volume of fluid flow. He claims over twice the volume of fluid exchange as stock.

He also said that he has done many cars from customers in the Middle East who run with no tranny coolers at all, just the valve body mod.

I thought about doing it to the 96, but if the boys at Subaru have already done it for us...

Pat would probably know)

[LarryIII]

John,

I will have to dig through my SVX libray this weekend.
It may also be on Joe Spitz's web site

[tmaslar]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for checking this out for me.

Tom

[Tiamat-red]

Originally posted by LarryIII
John,

I will have to dig through my SVX libray this weekend.
It may also be on Joe Spitz's web site

So did we ever find out?
Because I'm thinking I could probably find an entire 96+ tranny in a junkyard somewhere for $700. Although I'll still probably get the PTS kit.

[Tiamat-red]

Also if I'm thinking of the right part(which I'm probably not) it's only $700 direct from Subaru! Is this what we're talking about?
->HERE<- (http://www.subaruparts.com/diag/?model=2A&year=1997&style=4WD&body=&scn=1&category=182-1)

[Bxsvx]

How hard is it to change out the valve body for a do it yourselfer?:confused:

[Myxalplyx]

I am bringing this post back from the graveyard. It does not seem like there have been any response to it from experience.

Who has had the Level 10 PTS Hydrosystem (Or valve body) job performed on their SVX? What is your experience with it? I am interested in knowing since I plan on doing this sooner than later.

I know there are other options but it would be nice to see if someone has taken this route already. I had it done with my Outback Sport and I love it.

This is what I am thinking it will do-->

1) It will shorten the shift time between shifts by allowing the clutch packs to engage quickly rather than slipping to engage. I believe this will eliminate or dramatically shorten the 'power-loss' phenomena that a lot of us have been talking about. I don't think you need to go inside the TCU in order to do this. The only reason why I say this is because my Outback Sport shifted similarly before having the hydrosystem done,

2) It will dramatically shorten or eliminate the lean air/fuel ratio condition between shifts. I believe the TCU is telling the ECU (I am going to shift) and the ECU cuts fuel to the engine. If the TCU says (I am going to.....) then Boom, the transmission is in the next gear, the ECU will have little to no time to cut fuel to the engine.

3) Forgot to add this (Adding on 10/22/07). The hp & torque in between shifts should jump up an additional between 50-70hp & lb-ft of torque. Should feel like someone turned on nitrous in between shifts for a split second. That would be cool! That would be a big difference than losing hp and torque like we currently do.

Yes, this is my simple, no data or experience self talking but it is what I believe. I have been reading a lot on this but it still does not seem to be resolved. I believe Chike has already done something to 'firm' up the shifts between gears on my SVX but I am not seeing this on the dyno (at least not what I was expecting from a firm shift).

I am going to apologize to those this may have offended since a lot of work has gone into making firmer shifts from people here. I just wanted to voice my opinion on this even though I have less experience in the ins and outs of our tranny shift behavior.

Thoughts!?!

Also....could this be moved to the 'Mods' section? It is not necessarily a technical question like a how install or how to fix/repair an item. It's a modification to the valve body system to increase performance.

[svxual]

question??? dosent adding a aftermarket trans cooler etc cool the box so as not to operate the overdrive system properly :confused: why i ask is i stuk a rebuilt with a alloy top radiator in my car few weeks ago, straight after this i started having problems wth going into overdrive on long trips and as i only drive long trips this was proving a costly extra to my mileage!! i took to the shop and they said that it was being affected by me removing the cover under the car (i didnt put it back on after taking it off to replace radiator ,thought id leave off so as could check for leaks etc)they said it was causing extra cooling to my box !! well anyway i put it straight back on and have had no more overdrive problems :)..
so am i right 2 believe if i put a cooler in il have the same overdrive issues??

[Hocrest]

question??? dosent adding a aftermarket trans cooler etc cool the box so as not to operate the overdrive system properly :confused: why i ask is i stuk a rebuilt with a alloy top radiator in my car few weeks ago, straight after this i started having problems wth going into overdrive on long trips and as i only drive long trips this was proving a costly extra to my mileage!! i took to the shop and they said that it was being affected by me removing the cover under the car (i didnt put it back on after taking it off to replace radiator ,thought id leave off so as could check for leaks etc)they said it was causing extra cooling to my box !! well anyway i put it straight back on and have had no more overdrive problems :)..
so am i right 2 believe if i put a cooler in il have the same overdrive issues??
Yeah, I think the TCU will only engage the TC Lockup over 100*f. A coller that is not apart of the radiator and a cold winter day will make it impossibal to keep it over 100*f.

[Myxalplyx]

Wow! I know there was big talk years ago on this forum about using a Level 10 transmission. I know some people have the transmission upgrade itself but no-one has gotten a PTS Hydrosystem (Valve body) upgrade?

Interesting!! :confused:

I know it is expensive no doubt but not as expensive as a new transmission. And it performs great. Oh well...hopefully someone can get this done.

[Myxalplyx]

***Deleted*** I don't know how this posted twice.

[Myxalplyx]

Does anybody have any experience or opinions about the Hydrosystem valve recalibration that Level 10 (levelten.com)offers?
Tom

Tom may never read this but I'm posting just for documentation purposes. Had the dealership remove mine this past Tuesday (10/23/07) and overnighted it to Level 10. Level 10 did the valve body modification Wednesday (10/24/07) and overnighted the valve body to the dealership per my instruction. The dealership received it on 10/25/07 but didn't finish until 10/26/07 (Today). So it is possible to have it completed in a 3 day period.

I asked the service tech was there any problem and did the mechanic test drive it. He looked worried and said the mechanic thought the 1st to 2nd shift was harsh. I smiled and said, 'Excellent'. We laughed but I think his was a nervous laugh. I 'test drove' my car to a dyno shop along streets and highway routes. It feels absolutely Fantastic! Shift are prompt, firm and quick in all gears. Shifts are even instant at part throttle, cruising speed. Just the way I wanted it. I am hoping for at least a 50-75lb-ft of torque and horsepower increase from the other runs I have done on the dyno, between shifts.

Is it worth the cost? Nope! Just get a tranny cooler installed if you want to try to preserve your tranny. It IS worth the cost personally for me though since I have a very high value for instant shifts. I also have no intention on every changing this tranny no matter what I throw at it and I personally believe this to be a critical factor to this. I hate to be subjective on these things but I currently have no data to show how it shifts. It sucks so here I stand. It is pouring down raining at the track and I had problems on the dyno so nothing to show. That is all for now.

[Myxalplyx]

This is what I am thinking it will do-->

1) It will shorten the shift time between shifts by allowing the clutch packs to engage quickly rather than slipping to engage. I believe this will eliminate or dramatically shorten the 'power-loss' phenomena that a lot of us have been talking about. I don't think you need to go inside the TCU in order to do this. The only reason why I say this is because my Outback Sport shifted similarly before having the hydrosystem done,

2) It will dramatically shorten or eliminate the lean air/fuel ratio condition between shifts. I believe the TCU is telling the ECU (I am going to shift) and the ECU cuts fuel to the engine. If the TCU says (I am going to.....) then Boom, the transmission is in the next gear, the ECU will have little to no time to cut fuel to the engine.

Yes, this is my simple, no data or experience self talking but it is what I believe. I have been reading a lot on this but it still does not seem to be resolved. I believe Chike has already done something to 'firm' up the shifts between gears on my SVX but I am not seeing this on the dyno (at least not what I was expecting from a firm shift).
[/U]

I did not include #3 that I posted above because I have to see if the torque does jump up between shifts on the dyno. Have not had a chance to dyno the car since the valve body install.

Just wanted to get confirmation that if #1 and #2 is the case (I don't have the car in my hands now). Will the valve body solve the problem of slow shifts (Bypassing whatever the ECU is doing as the theory goes)? People have been talking about this for years and I have been staying 'mum' for a while. If you see this, please let the folks on the site know. Thanks! ;)

[TomsSVX]

Well having driven SEVERAL svxi... This is by far the quickest shifting one I have ever driven. Granted the 4.44 trans shifts a little faster than stock, this valve body shifts like Lightning. Not really too uncomfortable but just quick and responsive. I cannot wait to see what this will do WOT at the track... I have only been able to drive it on the streets, and I do not stress test customer cars on the street to their full capabilities... More to come after Sunday

Tom

[Tim]

How much does the upgraded valvebody cost? I should get one...

Nm... i'm going 5 speed soon anyway :D

[It's Just Eric]

Agreed. Shifts are very fast. And yes, they are actually FASTER, not just harder, which seems to be what you get with a tranny resistor. Even the downshifts when your slowing down are super super fast

if I was planning on staying auto, id do the upgrade myself:)

[Stevebsy]

It is good. I had it done a looong time ago. Earl now has that transmission in storage somewhere, but now that I have the regular 4EAT (4.444 version) I can't stand how lazy it shifts....

Take out the resistor and it is a little better than that :)

[Trevor]

Earlier in the thread, opening up an orifice to increase flow is mentioned as a means dropping temperature, which makes sense. Increasing the speed and firmness of shifts however must surely require an increase in line pressure and adjustments relating to the pressure regulator valve.

The pressure regulator is controlled electrically via solenoid A, which is pulse width modulated by the TCU. Therefore one means of increasing line pressure would to alter the modulated signal, but this is not easy to achieve and is something which Level 10 can not have done under the circumstances. Disconnecting the resistor has an some affect but is not desirable as it negates an important function.

We are therefore left with modifications to the regulator valve or more likely the pressure modifier valve which controls it. Evidently Level 10 refer to this as modification as a “Hydrosystem”. None of this is rocket science, but it does require hands on physical analysis of of a transmission, in particular the valve body. We have claims that successful modifications has been carried out commercially by a member here, but details have not been published for obvious reasons.

Experiment is likely to involve only the valve body. Who is going to leap into the fray? :D

[cdigerlando]

I have a level 10 built tranny. The fluid flow is incredible. I remember trying to measure it once, and it was very fast. I also run an external oil cooler.

I think this was a smart mod. Although expensive, you probably extended the life of your very expensive transmission. If you don't modify the motor a lot, it should give you a lot more service.

Question for you regarding your modification. Did you do the resistor mod with the valve mod? Do you remember if Level 10 recommends the resistor mod?

[SVXMAN2001]

I am wondering how the level 10 system compares with Lan's ecutune transmission upgrade...

[cdigerlando]

I am wondering how the level 10 system compares with Lan's ecutune transmission upgrade...

Mikes transmission rebuild costs about the same as a stock rebuild. As long as he is replacing the same parts, I would think it would be a no brainer to give it a try.

[Myxalplyx]

Question for you regarding your modification. Did you do the resistor mod with the valve mod? Do you remember if Level 10 recommends the resistor mod?

Yes from what I remember. I never changed anything from what Chike did. Here's the thread where he did the mod-->
http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27599&highlight=shifts+resistor

Level 10 told me that the resistor mod is not necessary with the hydrosystem. The valve body will still function as it should.

[TomsSVX]

Earlier in the thread, opening up an orifice to increase flow is mentioned as a means dropping temperature, which makes sense. Increasing the speed and firmness of shifts however must surely require an increase in line pressure and adjustments relating to the pressure regulator valve.

The pressure regulator is controlled electrically via solenoid A, which is pulse width modulated by the TCU. Therefore one means of increasing line pressure would to alter the modulated signal, but this is not easy to achieve and is something which Level 10 can not have done under the circumstances. Disconnecting the resistor has an some affect but is not desirable as it negates an important function.

We are therefore left with modifications to the regulator valve or more likely the pressure modifier valve which controls it. Evidently Level 10 refer to this as modification as a “Hydrosystem”. None of this is rocket science, but it does require hands on physical analysis of of a transmission, in particular the valve body. We have claims that successful modifications has been carried out commercially by a member here, but details have not been published for obvious reasons.

Experiment is likely to involve only the valve body. Who is going to leap into the fray? :D

Trevor, I did not install this valve body. I was asked to comment on his the transmission performs in regard to a stock 4eat. There are very noticeable differences between a stock transmission and the one in Kevin's car. Very impressed with shift speed and accuracy. There has been no disconnecting of the shift resistor and it does not have the waste your money shift kit. As far as I know it does have a modified shift resistor from SVXfiles, that I have used before as well but it does not do this.

Tom

[Myxalplyx]

It is good. I had it done a looong time ago. Earl now has that transmission in storage somewhere, but now that I have the regular 4EAT (4.444 version) I can't stand how lazy it shifts....

Take out the resistor and it is a little better than that :)

Not to keep beating on this but I just want to say that this may not be for everyone. Some people may not like the 'snap' feeling while cruising but instead want something 'butter-smooth' or slightly better than stock.
In the past, Pat Barrett (Owner of Level 10) used to have levels of shiftness that varied. Customers could choose from a range of somewhat quicker than stock to as far as quick/firm/instant. They no longer have this option. There is only one way it is done and that is the quick/firm/instant. You may confirm this by calling Level 10 and get updated pricing.

It is hard to justify the pricing. This mod saved my poor Impreza Outback tranny's life after I constantly abused it and it still will twist the steering wheel betwen shifts with the tiny hp it makes now.

A pic of a sample dyno run of my Outback from 1st gear to 3rd with the Hydrosystem is the best way I could show what I am describing.

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasck/Ebay1st-3rd_Gear.jpg
The 'firm' shift I am referring to is the 60-70ft-lbs of torque jump between shifts. That's a jump you can feel in your neck. I am not sure how this will look on the SVX from 1st to 3rd gear but if it is similar or better, it will be a huge improvement between gears than this--->
http://subaruxt.com/forum/files/tomyx-vs-sti_panel-hptq_167.jpg
This is the dyno run with the ToMyx intake. Look at the dip and lost of torque between shift. :(

The plan is to overlay the ToMyx runs with SVX in it's current state. Amongst other repairs Tom did, he repaired the AWD (I couldn't run AWD on the dyno when I went to test the ToMyx/Dale cold air setup and Hydrosystem [Valve Body Mod]). You'll have to be the judge if it is worth the cost from a performance perspective. Added transmission reliability just seals the deal for me. :p

[cdigerlando]

Good. Thanks for the info. I may go ahead and connect my resistor. Under full throttle the shifts are fine, but under normal easy crusing at low speed the 1st to 2nd shift is increadibly harsh. Hopefully it will not be too bad with the resistor reinstalled.