New Trannie Binding Questions (Help!)

[96svxer]

All right. I know this is a fairly common problem. When I make tight turns with my 92 svx the rear binds. I have researched this topic for weeks and have trouble shot, and this is what I have tried:

I bypassed both the campaign filter and radiator with a tube to verify if there was a clog. Car kept binding with everything bypassed.

I put the car into FWD mode. Car stops binding

I have four matching tires/sizes/wear

I get no "check engine" lights, I even ran the TCU test just in case I missed something but the power light just flashes every 1/4 second. If the solenoid goes bad electrically it should throw a code right? If the solenoid goes bad mechanically, using the FWD fuse should not have worked right because the solenoid should be "stuck"? So it cant be the solenoid???? What else could it be? Sticking tranfer plates????

I'M LOST!!!!!!!!

Now if the cars stops binding with the FWD fuse in place, that means the duty solenoid "C" is working? Isn't that the main purpose of the fuse? The fuse forces the solenoid to open thus allowing fluid to flow past, build up pressure, forcing the transfer plates together thus transfering power to the rear wheels? Is this correct?

This is my first car with AWD/automatic so both are foreign to me. Otherwise I'm pretty good with cars.

[Green1995SVX]

Go get a bottle of Limited Slip Differential Additive and dump it in your transmission. This has had a 100% success rate of solving binding problems at Kerven. Since we've started doing this we havent had to replace a single transmission because of binding.

Mike

[96svxer]

Slip Additive huh? Sounds like a good back up plan, but would really like to find the problem part and rip it out. What kind do you use or recommend? The Brad Penn limited-slip additive concentrate brand? Is 4 oz the right amount?

Any other ideas? Oh yeah the tranny fluid is the right level, and a real clean redish/pink.

[Aredubjay]

My first binding problem was caused by mismatched tranny/rear end. Make sure someone hasn't replaced your tranny with a tranny from a Legacy. This, however is more than likely, not your problem.

Transfer clutches is the most common problem when binding occurs. Check your rear diff grease, and make sure it's full (though, I'll guess you've already checked this).

If yours is a recent installation, try making some (6-8) tight figure 8s. Sometimes the trans and rear diff need to "get to know each other better" after a fresh install.

You're right about the codes. You'll only get codes if an electrical component begins to go. Failing mechanical components do not show up in the self diagnosis feature. So, I'd suspect transfer clutch.

Try the LSD additive (oooo, flashback). Even if it doesn't "fix" the problem, it'll at least buy you some time to save the money for repairs.

Best o' luck.

[96svxer]

The trannsmission is original 80,000 miles so it's probably not a mismatched tranny.

Havent actually opened up the fill hole on the Differential. Just inpsected it for leaks. None found. Maybe I will try that tonight, it's an idea, but a long shot.

Transfer clutch? Is that the same as transfer plates? Or am I missing something? Again not to versed in AWD systems.

Aredubjay did you used LSD additive? If so did it work, and downfalls, what types? Thanks for all the help so far guys. It's appreciated. Any body else have any ideas?

[96svxer]

Changed both the front and rear differental fluids to synthetic fluids. Helped alittle but the binding is still there. Am I supposed to put differential additive right into the tranny?

[Kerven Subaru]

yes. put the addetive in the tranny, not the diffs. we use the brad penn variety.

Mike

[96svxer]

Thanks for all the help...now if I can only find a place that sells the Brad Penn additive. It seems to be very elusive around these parts.

[Aredubjay]

Havn't used an LSD additive. Used "shudder fix" prior to finding out my tranny was mismatched.

I'm experiencing some binding now in "The Evil Twin" but, think it may be attributed to the Power Steering. I've got a leak in the return hose, but havn't had time to fix it. I just keep pouring in the ATF to keep it from going dry. :rolleyes: Just don't have any time for nothin' no more. :(

Originally posted by 96svxer
The trannsmission is original 80,000 miles so it's probably not a mismatched tranny.

Havent actually opened up the fill hole on the Differential. Just inpsected it for leaks. None found. Maybe I will try that tonight, it's an idea, but a long shot.

Transfer clutch? Is that the same as transfer plates? Or am I missing something? Again not to versed in AWD systems.

Aredubjay did you used LSD additive? If so did it work, and downfalls, what types? Thanks for all the help so far guys. It's appreciated. Any body else have any ideas?

[jpsull]

I just went through this same type deal. Replaced the tranns, replaced the TCU, had the tranny replaced under warranty. It was a bad u-joint in the rear drive line in the end. Hard to see so it's hard to inspect. Putting the fuse in puts 12v to the transfer clutch so it makes you think that the transfer clutch is bad because the sypmton goes away when there is actually just a bad end on the drive line. Relatively cheap fix compared to everything else I paid for.

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
Havn't used an LSD additive. Used "shudder fix" prior to finding out my tranny was mismatched.

I'm experiencing some binding now in "The Evil Twin" but, think it may be attributed to the Power Steering. I've got a leak in the return hose, but havn't had time to fix it. I just keep pouring in the ATF to keep it from going dry. :rolleyes: Just don't have any time for nothin' no more. :(



Update: As posted in another thread, it'snot the return hose. It's the power steering oil cooler. Rusted through. Yuk! New cooler on order.

Hope you get it worked out, 96'er.

[96svxer]

Well I hope I get it figured out too. Havent yet. Maybe I'll look at the U-joint. I HATE FRONT WELL DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[96svxer]

Well Binding issues are gone, I took Kervin Subaru's advise and added slip differential additive to my trannie, and instantly the problem was gone.

Thanks guys!

The 100% Success rate continues.

[black-svx]

Well the success rate continues on. I started getting the same problem (binding), and then put in the additive, and the problem went away.

After the problem went away I went and had the transmission and rear diff fluid drained and filled.

MIKE, i have a question though, first off why are we adding LSD fluid into the transmission and not the differential, and second, if the problem is with the differential, how does adding fluid to the tranny fix it??? I am stumped on this. thanks,


Mat

[mile-hi-bri]

Mat,
The 'binding' is not in the rear-end. It is actually in the 'transfer clutch/plates'. They are in the back section of the transmission. This is where the process turns from 'front-wheel' drive to 'all-wheel' drive. This area is 'lubed' by ATF. Thus, the additive goes into the trans. NOT the rear-end. Just don't overfill the tranny!!
I put a used trans in my '92 about 20,000 miles ago and had horrible binding. Added additive AND did the "figure 8's"! Wa-la!
Too bad the rest of the tranny didn't last.
Good luck!
mile-hi-bri

[Tim]

I was never able to find hte lsd differential additive. Where can you get it?

[96svxer]

TE1221 Check your PM's, sorry about the delay

[SSSVX]

Originally posted by 96svxer
Well Binding issues are gone, I took Kervin Subaru's advise and added slip differential additive to my trannie, and instantly the problem was gone.

Thanks guys!

The 100% Success rate continues.


I'm just wondering if your binding has ever come back since that day? :)

How many miles have you put on your SVX already since you added the additive thing? Change any new tires so far? :)

[96svxer]

Wow that thread was a plast from the past. I am happy to say my tranny has worked flawlessly since i added the additive, I have put around 10,000 miles on her since. I have the same tires on the car since I bought it. I would recommend the additive to anyone with binding problems.

[SSSVX]

Thanks for your reply. :)

It looks like a good cheap solution for pple who's experienced bindining problem.

P.S: Did you do any tire rotations in betn this 10,000miles?

[96svxer]

No tire rotations. Car is AWD not much difference in wear between all sets of tires.

[SSSVX]

But, for my experience, if i don't rotate my tires, my front tires do wear out much faster than the rear ones. (our front-end is heavy).

Maybe your awd system is activated more often than mine?? But,
my awd does work pretty well during this winter so far. :)

[Blackbir2001]

I have the binding problem on my UK imported JDM 92 model. I understand there are differences between the transmission specs on these and the US models i.e. it is permanent 4WD. Does anyone know if the Brad Penn Additive would work on these as well?

[nysvx10]

Where can I find some of this additive? Does anyone have a link for an online store?

[96svxer]

Hey a fellow upstater. I got my additive at Pepboys. I'm would think autozone would have something comparable.

[msvx95]

hey look at my post called AWD binding again...just posted today...I am looking for an answer too...I bought some stuff, but online, so I couldn't check the label for what it actually does...

Does this Kerven dealership still sell to the public??

[blue thunder]

I'm also having this binding issue and had a question. I am getting a c solenoid code #24 so I ordered a new c solenoid transfer valve for my subaru mechanic to put in. I dropped my car off for this part to be put in and now he wants me to get a whole series of parts additionally. He hasn't started any repairs. He is assuming that the clutch plates are bad and all the gaskets and rings etc... I have driven a few weeks with this binding going on. I'm going to try this LSD additive tommorrow if I can find it. Worth a try. If the c solenoid is stuck does it usually damage the clutch plates. Just looking for second opinions. They already replaced the rear differential when that wasn't the problem. Thanks.

Mike:)

[sperry]

Bump!

After my 4.44 swap fiasco (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=448292) (I had a 4.11 rearend on the car for a bit...) my new 4.44 has some binding. So I figured, this additive might be an easy "fix".

I grabbed some stuff from my local Kragen, and dumped it in with the ATF. It took a little bit of driving around before it started to help (I took a few laps around the neighborhood). I would say the binding is about 90% gone, but it's not "fixed". In addition, I'm noticing harsher shifts and light vibration while idling in D, like at a stop light. Pop it into N and the vibration stops. It seems like this additive stuff may do more than just assist the transfer clutch!

So I'm curious...

1st, why does the friction modifier help the transfer clutches? This stuff is supposed to make gear oil less slippery... so why does higher viscosity ATF work against binding?

2nd, what is the downside to putting this stuff in a 4EAT's ATF? I've got to think that it's going to raise temperatures at the torque converter (I better install my tranny cooler/filter before spring!). I also have to think that in the long term, this stuff will be bad for the gears themselves (and anything else that needs unmodified ATF for lubrication).

3rd, since I've still got some binding, should I just go and replace the transfer clutches and flush all this modified ATF out of the tranny? What parts do I need, and does anyone have a how-to or instructions for doing the transfer clutch repair on a '96 Legacy 4.44 4EAT?

[oab_au]

Bump!

After my 4.44 swap fiasco (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=448292) (I had a 4.11 rearend on the car for a bit...) my new 4.44 has some binding. So I figured, this additive might be an easy "fix".

I grabbed some stuff from my local Kragen, and dumped it in with the ATF. It took a little bit of driving around before it started to help (I took a few laps around the neighborhood). I would say the binding is about 90% gone, but it's not "fixed". In addition, I'm noticing harsher shifts and light vibration while idling in D, like at a stop light. Pop it into N and the vibration stops. It seems like this additive stuff may do more than just assist the transfer clutch!

So I'm curious...

1st, why does the friction modifier help the transfer clutches? This stuff is supposed to make gear oil less slippery... so why does higher viscosity ATF work against binding?

2nd, what is the downside to putting this stuff in a 4EAT's ATF? I've got to think that it's going to raise temperatures at the torque converter (I better install my tranny cooler/filter before spring!). I also have to think that in the long term, this stuff will be bad for the gears themselves (and anything else that needs unmodified ATF for lubrication).

3rd, since I've still got some binding, should I just go and replace the transfer clutches and flush all this modified ATF out of the tranny? What parts do I need, and does anyone have a how-to or instructions for doing the transfer clutch repair on a '96 Legacy 4.44 4EAT?

Hi Mate, read the thread, and I think the binding problems that you have may be normal. Well normal in as much as there may be nothing wrong to fix.

When you do the 3.5 to 4.44 swap, you end up with a "front to rear" rotational difference at the TCU.

The front speed sensor, is still reading the same revolutions as it did before, where as the rear speed sensor, is now reading about 20% faster. This is about the maximum difference, for the TCU to allow for turning, so it may consider the rotational difference to be wheel spin, and apply some transfer clutch to stop it.

Just a theory, but makes sense to me.:D

Harvey.;)

[sperry]

Hi Mate, read the thread, and I think the binding problems that you have may be normal. Well normal in as much as there may be nothing wrong to fix.

When you do the 3.5 to 4.44 swap, you end up with a "front to rear" rotational difference at the TCU.

The front speed sensor, is still reading the same revolutions as it did before, where as the rear speed sensor, is now reading about 20% faster. This is about the maximum difference, for the TCU to allow for turning, so it may consider the rotational difference to be wheel spin, and apply some transfer clutch to stop it.

Just a theory, but makes sense to me.:D

Harvey.;)

Are there two speed sensors? I was under the impression that there's just the one 3 wire speed sensor from the OEM tranny that gets reused after the swap. No one else w/ a 4.44 swap has had issues with binding, or with the speedo reading incorrectly if they reuse the OEM sensor.

Finally, if there really was a problem with the conversion as you suggest, then I would expect it to be at all times, not just around corners. My symptoms are right in line w/ a worn transfer clutch.

[Trevor]

Are there two speed sensors? I was under the impression that there's just the one 3 wire speed sensor from the OEM tranny that gets reused after the swap. No one else w/ a 4.44 swap has had issues with binding, or with the speedo reading incorrectly if they reuse the OEM sensor.

Finally, if there really was a problem with the conversion as you suggest, then I would expect it to be at all times, not just around corners. My symptoms are right in line w/ a worn transfer clutch.

The statement from an alleged engineer shows much confusion, but I do not think the intention was to relate to the reuse of a speed sensor. That said, I agree the remainder makes no sense.

Good to see at long last, someone resisting being misled and logic prevailing.

[oab_au]

Are there two speed sensors? I was under the impression that there's just the one 3 wire speed sensor from the OEM tranny that gets reused after the swap. No one else w/ a 4.44 swap has had issues with binding, or with the speedo reading incorrectly if they reuse the OEM sensor.

Finally, if there really was a problem with the conversion as you suggest, then I would expect it to be at all times, not just around corners. My symptoms are right in line w/ a worn transfer clutch.

Yes there are two speed sensors, the front one that you replaced with the SVX one, and the one in the back of the box, that reads the transfer clutch speed. The TCU compares these two readings to detect wheel spin. If they vary by less than 20% (app) It considers this as turning, and does not apply transfer pressure. If the difference is greater that 20%, it considers this to be wheel spin and sends pressure to the clutch.

With the front sensor reading front wheel speed, at the 3.5:1 rate, and the rear sensor reading rear wheel speed at a 4.44:1 rate, the difference is about 25%, up in the wheel spin area, so the TCU applies transfer pressure.

All the lower geared connersions are affected like this, just that the 4.44 has the greatest difference in speed readings.:)

Harvey.;)

[sperry]

Yes there are two speed sensors, the front one that you replaced with the SVX one, and the one in the back of the box, that reads the transfer clutch speed. The TCU compares these two readings to detect wheel spin. If they vary by less than 20% (app) It considers this as turning, and does not apply transfer pressure. If the difference is greater that 20%, it considers this to be wheel spin and sends pressure to the clutch.

With the front sensor reading front wheel speed, at the 3.5:1 rate, and the rear sensor reading rear wheel speed at a 4.44:1 rate, the difference is about 25%, up in the wheel spin area, so the TCU applies transfer pressure.

All the lower geared connersions are affected like this, just that the 4.44 has the greatest difference in speed readings.:)

Harvey.;)

Any other 4.44 owners care to comment on this? If it's true, it means every 4.44 should be binding around corners.

Since I haven't heard others mention this, I have to assume that I damaged my transfer clutch by driving around with a 4.11 rear end briefly (even though we had the FWD fuse in for the majority of the time and were at very low speeds with it out). But if other 4.44 owners can confirm the binding, you might be on to something.

One thing to note... I have a US spec Legacy tranny. No VDC (or whatever the dynamic center diff is called) like the overseas cars, which sounds like what you're describing. Are you sure the speed sensor issue even applies to the tranny in my car? I thought the center diff in the older trannys simply relied on a viscous coupler, and that the variable aspect of the diff was simply due to input from the TPS, and not electronically reactive to wheel slip.

Anyone that knows more, please comment!

[oab_au]

Any other 4.44 owners care to comment on this? If it's true, it means every 4.44 should be binding around corners.

Since I haven't heard others mention this, I have to assume that I damaged my transfer clutch by driving around with a 4.11 rear end briefly (even though we had the FWD fuse in for the majority of the time and were at very low speeds with it out). But if other 4.44 owners can confirm the binding, you might be on to something.

One thing to note... I have a US spec Legacy tranny. No VDC (or whatever the dynamic center diff is called) like the overseas cars, which sounds like what you're describing. Are you sure the speed sensor issue even applies to the tranny in my car? I thought the center diff in the older trannys simply relied on a viscous coupler, and that the variable aspect of the diff was simply due to input from the TPS, and not electronically reactive to wheel slip.

Anyone that knows more, please comment!

Yes Mate, I know what model you have, and this is for the US Transfer system.

The Binding in the clutch can be from the clutch pact being set up too tight. When you build the transfer clutch up with new plates, you have to select a pressure plate to suit to thickness of the plates, too tight and it will bind, too loose and it will delay. Yours may be set up too tight, so along with the extra transfer pressure added for the difference in rotation, so it binds noticeably.

If this is the case, yours may settle down when the plates bed in and loosen up.:)

Harvey.;)

[sperry]

Yes Mate, I know what model you have, and this is for the US Transfer system.

The Binding in the clutch can be from the clutch pact being set up too tight. When you build the transfer clutch up with new plates, you have to select a pressure plate to suit to thickness of the plates, too tight and it will bind, too loose and it will delay. Yours may be set up too tight, so along with the extra transfer pressure added for the difference in rotation, so it binds noticeably.

If this is the case, yours may settle down when the plates bed in and loosen up.:)

Harvey.;)

Okay, I think we might have a bit of a disconnect about what we're talking about here.

First, I have a 4.44 legacy transmission, with the matching 4.44 rear end on the car. There shouldn't be any weird speed differentials between front and rear diffs. The tranny and rear end came from a junk yard. They were not rebuilt (aside from installing the SVX LSD carrier in the rear-end). I doubt the transfer clutch plates need to bed in... besides I did the whole figure-8 thing, and the binding did not improve.

Second, the car briefly had a 4.11 rear end paired with the 4.44 front diff. It was driven maybe 20 miles like this *with the FWD fuse installed*. With the FWD fuse out, the car had undriveable binding at under walking speeds (like 2 mph). This is what I think oab_au is talking about, and it is not the problem I'm having.

Since I replaced the 4.11 rearend with a 4.44, the car drives fine in a straight line, but binds around tight corners. The standard binding that everyone gets with a busted Sol.C or worn transfer clutch.

I added the LSD friction modifier to my ATF, and my binding has been reduced, but not eliminated.

My questions were, "how does the additive work?", and "what's the procedure/parts necessary to rebuild the transfer clutch?"

I believe I know *why* I have binding (I drove the car w/ the wrong rearend on it, and even w/ the FWD fuse installed, it wore out my transfer clutch... i.e. the same thing that happens when someone tows the car on 2 wheels).

So, can anyone point me to a parts list and how-to for rebuilding the transfer clutch? I'd hate to take it to Subaru and try to get them to do it, since I get the feeling that telling them to treat it like a '96 Legacy 4.44 4EAT won't work, and they'll be jamming the transfer clutch for an SVX 4EAT in there!