Closed deck EG33?

[KEVINL]

Was there ever a closed deck EG33 or can they be made

[Chris]

Closed Deck??? :confused: :confused:

Chris
(SVX Admin)

[SVXtypeR]

I'm currently working with Dan Paramore on this very issue.

FYI: Quick engine builder's class for those who don't know. The deck is the surface of the engine block where the cylinder head mates to.

-An "open-deck" refers to a motor designed with "floating" cylinder sleeves (ie, the water jacket where your coolant flows forms a channel completely around the cylinders and separates them from the engine block proper. (most Japanese engines are designed this way)
-A "closed-deck" refers to a motor where said surface only has intermittant "holes" to allow coolant to pass from (or to, depending on watet jacket design) the cylinder heads. Most "old-school" big blocks are designed this way.

An open deck is *not* good for powerful engines because the extreme cylinder-pressures and side-loading can cause the un-supported cylinders to shift and crack. Some extreme import motor builders have gone so far as to fill the entire coolant jacket area with EPOXY!!! (for drag motors only!!).

and now, on to our regularly scheduled program...

Kevin, what we (Dan and I) discussed was the possibility of a 1/2" thick girdle welded to the deck (a more extreme idea I had was to totally bore out the stock sleeves and fit custom chrome-moly sleeves with an integrated girdle on the top).

I'm going with custom Crower *everything* for the internals (crank, connecting rods, valve springs, valve spring retainers etc...). I'm going to talk to some other builders soon, my deadline is the 10th anniv meet.

[cdigerlando]

I recommend that if you are going to close the deck on the EG33 that you go to someone who is familiar with the engine, like rebello racing or Cobb tuning. Cobb actually has a price for this on his website to close the deck on a 2.5L RS. The procedure would be quite similar. There are some tricks to it. I also recommend that you do something to improve the oil flow to the heads. Bigger pump and auxillary cooler. I've done the cooler. Anyone know about a large volume pump for the SVX? I wouldn't worry about it though unless you are making in excess of 450 HP.

[SVXtypeR]

Originally posted by cdigerlando
I also recommend that you do something to improve the oil flow to the heads. Bigger pump and auxillary cooler. I've done the cooler. Anyone know about a large volume pump for the SVX? I wouldn't worry about it though unless you are making in excess of 450 HP.

In case anyone's interested (cdig, kevin, and others looking for big HP), I'm going with a dry sump system. Solves *all* common oiling problems in one nice swoop. (yeah, it's overkill, but so's the rest of my project...) :D

[cocacola08]

Have you guys talked to the people @ flatline motorsports?

website:
http://www.flatlinemotorsports.com/racecar.htm

They've built a dragster with an SVX motor that runs 8.305 @ 157.71 in the 1/4mi. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark that they have got the high horsepower ideas figured out!!!

[cdigerlando]

Building an engine for a dragster is a different animal than for rally or street. You are running ethanol and don't need to worry to much about long term cooling since you run the engine at the most for 10 seconds! I have heard of this engine though, and it is a great piece of work. I am more interested in engine power and longevity.

Rebello racing on the other hand modifies EG33 engines for airplanes and for GT type racing, which is more indicative of the conditions we will encounter on the street GT or rally racing. I might be more inclined to go with thier recommendations, rather than building a 900 HP engine for the 1/4 mile.

I have no idea what Paeco is doing. I need to talk to them to find out what they are proposing to do with the SVX engine. From what I understand from Rebello, modifiing this engine is difficult and problematic. There are issues with compression and cylinder cooling that must be adequately addressed. This was an expensive trial and error process for them. If you go with Paeco, who I think has never actually done any mods, you might get an engine with a very short life due to heat and detonation complications. I strongly suggest going to someone who has done this before to avoid a complicated expensive research project.

[cdigerlando]

OK. I spoke with Paeco. They say that they do all of the standard things to rebuild an engine stronger. They did not mention timing, fuel or oil cooling, and they have not done a turbocharged engine. I may work with them on this because their price is so good, but I'm not real confident in them yet. They are sending me a catalogue which outlines what they provide. I will prepare a list of questions and problems, relative to the EG33 and see how they do. I would also be willing to send the whole engine to them turbo kit, exhaust, engine management, and all to let them play with modifications to get this sucker going.

The stage 2 sounds like a great modification (310HP), as long as engine management and fuel is part of these mods. Anything without these improvements would not work, in my opinion.

[cdigerlando]

Exactly what is intailed in the dry sump project?

[SVXtypeR]

Autos have two types of engine oiling systems, dry-sump and wet sump.

WET SUMP
is what is on 99.9% of all non-race vehicles. It's basically your standard deep-well oil pan directly under the motor thats sucked dry by a nearby crank-driven oil pump.

PROS-easy to manufacture, fairly light

CONS- raises the engines center of gravity (requires a lot of clearance for the deep pan), oil sloshing (from extreme manuvering) can dump oil all over the crank (windage) which robs MUCHO horsepower and can uncover the oil pump pickup ( you'd be supprised how many times you've run on ZERO OIL PRESSURE but not have it register on the gauge because it happens so fast). Oil slinging off the crank also has lots of air-bubbles which are picked up and sent right back through the galleys (reduction of oil's effectiveness)

DRY SUMP
commonly used on drag cars, and practically ALL other forms of racing vehicles. oil falls off the crank into a shallow pan that has pickup for an external pump (scavange stage, usually only one) which transports the oil to a REMOTE resivoir (can be anywhere in the car) where it is stored. It is then sucked out of the holding tank by another pump (pressure stage, can be one or more, up to 5) and sent back to the engine.

PROS- due to system pressurization, engine has no dry starts and no uncovered oil pickup due to extreme manuvers. Bubbles more readily leech out of oil due to pressurization and sitting in the remote resivoir. Multi-stage pump setups can be plumbed so that oil is supplied under pressure DIRECTLY to the heads or any trouble spots. System increases amount of oil (good for cooling), shallow pan allows motor to be placed lower in the chassis (lower center of gravity for better handling). Remote location allows for ease of draining and addition of oil coolers and redundant filters. Remote location also allows for weight balancing (taking the 5qt pan with it's oil and moving it to the rear of the SVX will make a WORLD of difference in weight distribution)

CONS- weight. and.... uuhhhh.... that's pretty much it!

[cdigerlando]

Thanks for the explanation. Very good description. It seems like an easy thing to setup on the SVX. The only trouble would be finding a pan to fit. Also some major engine mount modifications would be necessary to lower the engine and tranny to take advantage of the setup from the handling standpoint. I may consider it when rebuilding my engine. Everything else would be easy to do. Rear oil tank. Right now I have a front mounted oil cooler. I guess it would be easy to set this up with that.

[SVXtypeR]

I was simply going to modify the existing pan (chop about 6" off the bottom, weld in a new bottom with a scavange port, and weld in a windage tray), that would be hands down the quickest, simplest and least costly way (I'm finding out with the SVX that modifying EXISTING parts is getting me where I wanna go much faster than total fabrication).

As for lowering the drivetrain?? Even *I* ain't gonna try THAT one!!:D Sides', as you've noted, you really can't get a much lower center of gravity than the stock setup without SERIOUS hassle. The SVX already has one of the lowest mouted engines (CoG wise) ever put in a production car. The only other car (maker) I could think of that might match it would be Porsche (and other Scoobys of course). That kind of trauma might be worth it on a heavy V engine, a'la Viper (for the GTS-R), but the SVX engine is less than 1/3rd the weight and at stock height probably STILL has a lower CoG than the dry-sumped GTS-R's V10.

Overall, I'm doin' this primarily for the insurance of engine oiling during high-G's and the weight transfer of moving the oil storage tank.

[cdigerlando]

This is a good idea though. Where else would you run oil lines to improve oiling. I'm finding oil vents all over the heads and valve covers. It might be possible to tap into one of these. I did this with my turbo setup and it works great.

[picklesbitch]

Originally posted by SVXtypeR

CONS- weight. and.... uuhhhh.... that's pretty much it!

I knew a guy running a 427 Chivvy with a dry sump, dirt track roundy pounder, most of the others were running wet sump small blocks. One day he went around the track, and for some reason, I don't know if they ever found out for sure, he lost oil to the crank. One rod locked up on the crank, sawed that cast iron big block in half! He salvaged 6 rods and pistons, the timing gears and chain and that was about it. I know, with race cars you have to expect some breakage sometimes but, ughh.
Mike

[cdigerlando]

The problem might be if you break a line or the electric oil pump goes out. You could burn up real quick. It would be possible to fuel cut with engine management if the oil pressure goes too low. Thats what I would do to improve reliablility.